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20-08-2011, 04:26 PM #51
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Re: Pre-charged Splits Should Be Banned
@paul-h
As I see it, if you only stop do warranty calls for installs that are done by unlicensed installers everyone will benefit except customers who are choosing to install it by himself or by cheaper unauthorised installers.
As I pointed earlier, here wholesalers make list of authorised installers and only they could install units and sign warranty paper. Service of these units is covered and paid by wholesalers, not manufacturers.
Manufacturers only give discount on price to wholesalers for all units.
And, not to be kidding ourself, proper installation on residential single split-system could do almost every Bonobo monkey with proper tools and 3 hours of training how to make flare and vacuum drying, and 2 hours of how to make drainage properly, and 15 min. of how to properly extend power cord .Last edited by nike123; 20-08-2011 at 04:39 PM.
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20-08-2011, 04:38 PM #52
Re: Pre-charged Splits Should Be Banned
It's the licenced installers that are the problem here.
Electricians, plumbers and anyone experienced in install can get the licence after doing a short college course.
They can't flare, they don't do a decent vac, they don't leak test, they install cheaply (minimal pipe ducting, minimal pipe length, no isolator. In short don't read the installation manual, don't follow best practice, they put the units in inaccessible locations, and just walk away even though they have a licence - more of an enviromental licence to handle refrigerants, not a skills based licence.)
Of course short cuts are made because they don't have to deal with anything after the fact re: breakdowns, and can walk away. If there's a leak, they aren't legally allowed to buy refrigerants, so they will deny any fault, they can't fix it. In the end the manufacturer cops the bad rep.
So the gist of my statements is if you can't buy refrigerant, you have no business installing, therefore units not being precharged shouldn't be a hassle to people that should be installing them in the first place, and keep out people that don't know a damn thing about a/c or refrigeration, installer licence or not.
the electricians, plumbers and mechanics that grant these refrigerant handling licences to the electricians, plumbers and mechanics, felt like it would be the right thing to do to stop fridgies like me working on their own cars a/c!
edit: I'm not getting worked up about this, I'm beyond caring.
I think I made a post ages ago about the pros and cons on different aspects of the industry.
Refrigeration means 24/7
A/c is easier, but a one man band can't do commercial
I'm only doing this domestic stuff (a/c and refrig) because it's easy to be a one man band doing this.
But I've had enough of domestic a/c for all the reasons I've said.
And in the other thread I started once about asking about industrial/commercial work I did say I want to go there for less of this dodgey installer crap.
Hopefully I'm moving within a year to the albany WA area and start doing something different.Last edited by paul_h; 20-08-2011 at 04:51 PM.
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20-08-2011, 05:36 PM #53
Re: Pre-charged Splits Should Be Banned
I think the problem is some 'tradespeople' doing stuff they obviously are not capable of doing, this leaves customers thinking the world owes them a warranty, which it obviously don't...
I like doing stuff myself, be it a bit of diy round the house, or working on my car or truck and wouldn't want to prevent other formally unqualified people doing stuff for themselves only or not for money.
I would want to prevent them doing work they are not the least bit trained and tested in for others, society works because for the most part we all abide by laws and do whats expected of us. So i think if i'm employing a professional they should know what they are doing, and be the type of person who not only knows how to do but also does things propperly.
Who would want a lift home from a night out by a taxi driver who couldn't drive and/or didn't have insurance, or drove dangerously or quickly to try and get more fares done in a night?
Or as another example, who'd want to buy, and what would the consequences be, of someone with no knowledge making a load of training books for sale to a trade?
I was watching a history program a few months back about food standards hundreds of years ago, and how to be able to make a living bakers were putting chalk and saw dust in the bread to lower prices!!! The trouble is once a few people in a trade start doing this sort of thing, the rest have to follow or go bust to be competative. One persons greed (on the part of the trade) and another persons meanness with money (on the part of the customer) poisons a whole profesion.
I try to be fair in all my dealings with customers, that they get value for money, and to remeber that those companies i buy from need to earn a fair price for their efforts too, but with hacks and bodgers in a pretty much unregulated trade it doesn't really make me much of a living.
JonMostly found in Oxfordshire, UK :)
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20-08-2011, 05:37 PM #54
Re: Pre-charged Splits Should Be Banned
Lucky for me, i have stopped installing splits and repair them some 5 years ago mainly from the reasons you guys wrote here.
As i se it, folks try to save money [or thats what they think they do] and Ministry who set the rulls do not understand **** about splits. On the other side we work under tight regulations of using refrigerants inside the systems.
At the end of the day its politics.
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20-08-2011, 06:36 PM #55
Не попадитесь
Всем привет. Хочу поделится с вами своей историей. Занимаюсь вебмастерингом и СЕО уже не первый год. Арендую хостинги сервера под различные нужды. Хостился на мирохосте, фрихосте, империи, всех не перечислить. И тут мне один полузнакомый друг посоветовал захоститься у (s-dedicated.com). Я купил для теста VPS-ку за 20 долларов. Все работало шикарно, я переехал туда полностью, залил свои белые проекты, залил так же дорвеи. Спустя месяц мой серверок начинает отключаться, естественно администрирование у s-dedicated платное, пришлось ко всему своему букету доучивать администрирование CENT OS, консольные команды и тому подобное. Уточню один момент, нагрузку на сервер я не создавал, т.к. трафика было в районе 2К уников в сутки. По мере возможностей я подымал свой падающий сервер раз в неделю. И тут случается такой момент что сервер не подымается. Я пишу в поддержку, говорю, помогите поднять. Они мне предлагают платное администрирование. 25 долларов за поднятие сервера. Я читаю гугл и подымаю сервер заново. Потом сервер начал падать каждый день. Я задумался о переезде. После последнего падения сервер не хотел перегружаться даже с панели биллинга. Я снова обратился за помощью в саппорт на что получил снова ответ. 25 долларов и вам подымут сервер. Мне эта история надоела, я уже начал подыскивать варианты переезда. Говорю мол, отдайте мне бекап с моего сервера и я поехал дальше. Манибек не нужен, оставьте себе. На что я снова получил ответ, чтоб получить бекап нужно поднять сервер, а поднять его стоит 25 долларов. Я заподозрил что сервер падает не случайно а по заказу, видимо абонентской платы хостеру показалось мало. Я позвонил на номера телефонов которые указаны на сайте, несколько раз попал совершенно в другие организации и 1 телефон меня привел в администраору, который так нагло вымагал у меня 25 долларов за бекап сервера. Я попросил отдать мне бекап по-хорошему, на что голос, явно гомосексуальной интонацией мне ответил - "Угрозы??????? и бросил трубку." Больше я дозвониться не сомг, трубку никто не брал. Администратор вел себя так же, как девченка в 15 лет. После этого я вижу у себя в биллинге минус 10 долларов и в тикетах ответ. Администратор поднял ваш сервер, там были вирусы и мы решили с вас стянуть 10 долларов. Черт с ними, начал тянуть я оттуда свои бекапы, доров было много, поэтому перевозил проект за проектом на новый хостинг. Тут мне остается стянуть последний проект, предоплаченного хостинга у меня остается 2 дня, и что я вижу - сервер закрыт раньше срока. Пишу в поддержку с просьбой вернуть бекап слышу ответ: Ваш сервер удален из-за нагрузки. получается удалили мои сайты даже не разобравшись в чем дело. Просто видимо поняли что я не буду платить за администрирование 25 долларов каждый раз, когда они будут мне специально ложить сервер и решили просто от меня избавится. Вот такая история. Прилагаю переписку с админом. Просмотр тикета: Остановка сервера #1 Сообщение | Дата: 2011-08-19 19:25:47 | Важность: | Статус: Вы остановили сервер когда у него еще оставалось 3 дня. Запустите его на эти 3 дня. Мы на них расчитывали для того чтобы стянуть все бекапы. Сервер должен был работать до 22,08,2011 а сегодня только 19,08. Давайте работать честно!!! #2 Ответ (Nik) | Дата: 2011-08-19 20:46:57 1. Ваш сервер создал большую нагрузку, что привело к проблеме. 2. У Вас долг 10 USD по предыдущему решению Вашей проблемы. Ваш сервер отключен по этим параметрам. #3 Сообщение | Дата: 2011-08-19 21:33:48 мне нужно докачать бекап. вебсервер можете не включать, мне нужно зайти в панель, посмотреть какому юзеру принадлежит фтп и скачать бекап из HTML файлов. Организуйте мне на 1 день доступ к панели и фтп больше ничего не нужно #4 Ответ (Nik) | Дата: 2011-08-19 21:37:49 Нет такой возможности. При включении Вашего впс снова создастся проблема для других клиентов. Увы, помочь не можем. #5 Сообщение | Дата: 2011-08-19 21:57:28 Сохраните бекап целиком и выложите его на любое фтп я перекачаю. #6 Ответ (Nik) | Дата: 2011-08-19 22:02:37 Ваш сервер удален. #7 Сообщение | Дата: 2011-08-19 22:05:52 уу за 2 дня до окончания хостинга удаляете сервер, как это понимать? На каких основаниях? вы в курсе что я даже могу в суд подать ? вы стерли мои данные. #8 Ответ (Nik) | Дата: 2011-08-19 22:08:26 Будьте добры подавайте. Встречный иск будет за моральный ущерб, порча оборудования и штраф за размещение порнографии. (перед арендой администратор лично разрешил хостить дорвеи взрослой тематики). Вот так вот. Не попадитесь в руки к хостингу s-dedicated.com!
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20-08-2011, 06:59 PM #56
Re: Pre-charged Splits Should Be Banned
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20-08-2011, 07:24 PM #57
Re: Pre-charged Splits Should Be Banned
It is indeed about politics. Governments have driven up costs to the point where the untrained and unlicensed can do the same job much cheaper than those who are trained and licensed... and to the point where it would be insane not to consider doing the job yourself. Gone are the days when, for a reasonable cost, you could have the job done professionally.
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20-08-2011, 07:33 PM #58
Re: Pre-charged Splits Should Be Banned
Thats a very true Un-biased view Gary
My biased towards getting shot of these pre-charged units and stronger legistlation/penalties is purely based upon the time/effort/knowledge proffesionals of our industry put in, to have the work ripped from under them by mr bodget & scarperIf the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !
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20-08-2011, 08:05 PM #59
Re: Pre-charged Splits Should Be Banned
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20-08-2011, 08:05 PM #60
Re: Pre-charged Splits Should Be Banned
if splits came out the box with a sniff of ofn then the cowboy plumbers will end up getting round this by fitting a quick fill loop and auto airvent-plumbers should stick to unblocking toilets and changing tap washers!!!
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20-08-2011, 09:18 PM #61
Re: Pre-charged Splits Should Be Banned
Under a split RHL licenses a sparky is permitted to add refrigerant to all split wall A/C of less than 18kw when extra refrigerant is needed for longer pipe runs on new installations.
How do they do their job if they cannot buy refrigerant with an RTA?
Not so long ago we done all the a/c work for a automotive repairer recently one of their diesel machanics done the 3 day AUTO course now we do not do the work there. Who is buying the refrigerant? Because we are not buying it for them. I know for a fact there is no fully qualified refrigeration mechanics working there.Last edited by AUScooler:-); 20-08-2011 at 09:58 PM.
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21-08-2011, 12:22 AM #62
Re: Pre-charged Splits Should Be Banned
Auscooler, i don't have an answer to that . RTA, or Refrigerant Trading Authority, coupled with Handling licence is supposed to keep us in the specialist field but obviously, the roof over our heads leaks in many places.. Try as i may to work within the confines of my restricted electrical ticket, there is always some sparkie ready to jump down my throat when grey areas are involved, such as running cable from indoor to outdoor on a split, NOT running cable from the house circuit breaker to the a/c. Had to go through the formalities of "please explain" to the electrical board in Brisbane after this tosser dobbed me in . End result: Don't even think about running any cable on refrigeration gear but once installed electrically, and something happens to that cable, then i,m able to rip it out and rerun it. How about test and tag? Noope. New South Wales fridgies can but Queensland guys, with the same licence, cannot. Have to have another ticket for that !!..Mike.
To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty.
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21-08-2011, 03:11 AM #63
Re: Pre-charged Splits Should Be Banned
So you want proof then?
Well here you go.
http://www.arctick.org/pdf/Amended_R...April_2010.pdf
140, (1) (a), (3) (b) (i)
Regulation 131, 3
P.S the only reason electricians do not get an RTA is because most splits do not need additional refrigerant, once an electrician obtains an RTA they will be audited like we are, 2 times every year, and they will then have to comply with section 141 in the above link like we refrigeration mechanics all do. Its much smarter and cheaper for an electrician not to get an RTA.
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21-08-2011, 03:44 AM #64
Re: Pre-charged Splits Should Be Banned
Gents
having read this and through the link,
it seems just crazy, you have to stick to rules/regs & sparks dont even when your carrying out the same job
we(engineers - you call mechanics) are hoping for much better regulation here, yet all it seems to have done for you's is ensure you comply
not improved the standards of work allowed when carried out with a restricted licence, now i know why a friend who moved to perth, employs sparks for all his installs
& probaly the answer to who buys the refrigerant is going tobe him as he holds the full licence, i'll phone him about 9:00 uk time & find out how they get round it & let you knowIf the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !
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21-08-2011, 06:19 AM #65
Re: Pre-charged Splits Should Be Banned
We are not safe from electrical inspectors, even if we don't do the electricals.
We mount the heat pump and connect the refrigeration, but who does the electricals???? We are not allowed to do a short course to do the electricals.
Just a few month ago I installed a wall mount heat pump above an old electric wall heater. Whilst installing the refrigeration pipe work a home owner asked me, to do the electricals as well as the refrigeration, I said "no call an electrician".
Anyway he went out to the kitchen flipped pages through the phone book then he said, "im going down to the shop". I said to our apprentice "did he even ring an electrician"? "No said our apprentice". 1/2 hour later guess who turns up?
The DIY with some undersized electrical cable.
Now we had almost finished the install and I was happy with my work. Then the DIY pulls off the wall heater and uses the old wall heater supply as the new supply for the heat pump. The DIY ran undersized exposed cable from the old heater across carpeted floor and nailed it to the skirting board drilled a hole through the wall and and poked the wire out to the outdoor unit. It annoyed me because it stuffed up my good installation. At this point I had finished the pipework and left. If that electrical install by the DIY goes wrong the electrical inspector will blame us. The electrical inspector will say you installed it or must have known the DIY was installing it. Even If we dont't know the DIY installed the electricals they will still blame us.Last edited by AUScooler:-); 21-08-2011 at 08:24 AM.
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21-08-2011, 10:59 AM #66
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21-08-2011, 02:38 PM #67
Re: Pre-charged Splits Should Be Banned
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21-08-2011, 02:43 PM #68
Re: Pre-charged Splits Should Be Banned
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21-08-2011, 03:01 PM #69
Re: Pre-charged Splits Should Be Banned
How do you go on with commisioning the finished systems regards to electrical licences, can you rig up an extension lead to feed the unit temporarily? Or do the oz rules prevent you from opening a board up to connect a supply? Its the same in in North America, every trade has to have a licence to be able to nessecarilly diverse to get things sorted. And its my understanding that in Canada, that you have to have a red seal licence to work as an electrician and another red seal licence to be able to work as an industrial electrician? Although in some Provinces they only recognise one licence for both types?
Training may be finished but experience is never complete.
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22-08-2011, 04:35 AM #70
Re: Pre-charged Splits Should Be Banned
Nup Chilli,cannot connect supply. I avoid installations unless sparkie is there on site, even then, customer is paying double. Classic case, an extension was added to doctors surgery and 6 splits were fitted. Sparkie did it all, including running copper lines uninsulated together, then ran armorflex over both before cement was poured on them. Cannot be undone now and a/c's don't work their best.. Mike.
To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty.
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22-08-2011, 08:21 PM #71
Re: Pre-charged Splits Should Be Banned
It seems to be going that way over here but in a slightly different direction. A fridgie can only comission, repair, and check pressures on a system if they've got the dreaded C&G 2079 or the CITB. But anyone can train to do it within two weeks and be assessed and qualify, I should imagine its similiar to the Oz system. Whereas someone who is time served or qualified to another City and Guilds qualification that is more suited to fridge or aircon, and may take at least two years to complete. Isn't allowed to do anything except install properly and leave the job unfinished.
With the electrical works it stinks even as bad. A time served electrician who may be a technician foreman supervising 50+ sparkies. Can't even fit a light fitting in their own bathroom, a couple of extra sockets in their own kitchen, or wire a circuit for a condensing unit outdoors, or any other circuit for that matter. Unless they're a member of an electrical safety body, or pay the local council around Ј250.00 to cover around Ј4500.00 worth of work??? To send out an inspector to simply visually inspect the job and tick box's on a sheet, and rely on the fact that the electrical installation safety certificate has been filled in correctly.
So it would seem that nearly every country has gone totally beauracratic crazy regarding what they define as safe and sound, and compliant with regs and codes. Time served tradesfolk seem to be a dying thing, but folk not even up to a rookie standard with a licence seem to be in more demand!Training may be finished but experience is never complete.
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22-08-2011, 09:17 PM #72
Re: Pre-charged Splits Should Be Banned
All too hard, I'm just going to find a market and deal in sales of spare parts for whatever is hard to get. Let the people buying the parts whine about ****ty installs...
I'm too old to be climbing/jumping over 2 storey roofs anyway. **** domestic, the manufacturers should make the installer provide warranty! Once they did that, then maybe the installers would have a clue and be interested and skilled enough to do repairs, then the whole refrigeration trade can disappear from the domestic scene. Like I said, I really don't care and I'm over it.Last edited by paul_h; 22-08-2011 at 09:23 PM.
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