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Thread: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
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19-03-2012, 10:05 PM #51
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
As i asserted in the first line of my last post. Simply adding a product analog to your control thermostat will not increase efficiency.
Not in a day, not in a week, not in a month.
The only REAL way to realize increased efficiency is to put wrenches on the system and tune it.
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20-03-2012, 03:59 AM #52
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Well researched and said and done Grizzly. In same bracket as IceCold snake oil.
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20-03-2012, 07:28 AM #53
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Coldmetal
you have certainly come to the wrong place, expecting to find gullable fools to spin
I am certainly no scientist [so the world can still breeth easy] but I am in a position to carry out real world tests
If your company would like to send me a cube [FOC] then I would be happy to spend some time using it & recording the results
these would not include indepth analasyse of the product [which will still have to be assessed at some point]
but they will be a good starting block to show how it performs against a range of produce and system amp draw which the others here who all know me can rest assured they are recieving 100% fact and can also decide how and what they want me to do with it
I have yours & 'Guys' emails for contact... if you'd like to take advantage of this olive branch then I'll drop you a line with my address
R's chillermanIf the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !
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20-03-2012, 08:23 AM #54
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
I did some digging today and came up with, among other things, an Australian phone number for Endocube. TRYING to keep an open mind, i called them to see if i could purchase, (not borrow) just one for a specific coldroom i had in mind. One that i know like the back of my hand.
Had to endure the sales pitch first before i got a word in edgewise...So what will it cost me?.. Oh really, that much??.. Not worth the trouble as i was prepared to test this, at my own expense and any possible collateral damage... or not.
Not a good marketing plan as this potential customer has found out that your device is sold at a greatly reduced price elsewhere.. No free sausage sizzle or jumping castle hereTo the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty.
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20-03-2012, 09:27 AM #55
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
You are one up on me! I rang, they checked me out whilst talking to them, got a flea in the ear, and promise that a technical person would contact me. Not happened, I must be on the black list. I wonder why?
But good on your for having an open mind, and willing to have punt. Do you want to buy a "BOOST" go on please, pretty please, free FUD with every unit. Marketing not my strongest field.
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21-03-2012, 11:31 PM #56
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Hey frigi you trolling???
Are you getting it up the rump from or with Coldmetal??
Or are you just the usual bellend who think's he's witty?
Cheers
StuTool's ? check ! Condom's ? check !
If you can't fix it , f*ck it !!!
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21-03-2012, 11:48 PM #57
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Guess that answers that one. Twat.
Tool's ? check ! Condom's ? check !
If you can't fix it , f*ck it !!!
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21-03-2012, 11:52 PM #58
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Hi Frigi, you should really get another email address if yous gonna pretend to be some averagy Joe from the States instead of one of our antipodean chums...
http://onergy.com.au/Mostly found in Oxfordshire, UK :)
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21-03-2012, 11:55 PM #59
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
If you must know, I'm currently off work recuperating from a fairly minor injury sustained when I drove a 1/2" twist drill into my left hand.
All I've got to do is to hang out on the interweb blogs and harass snake-oil salesmen until I've fully healed and can get back to it.
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21-03-2012, 11:59 PM #60
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Mostly found in Oxfordshire, UK :)
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22-03-2012, 12:00 AM #61
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Hello and welcome back, and why not make comments about endocube? This is work! I do sleep, root, eat, so not all my life, a couple of hours to date!
I do hope that you are going to furnish us with some engineering proof of principle.
That is all that is being requested!
"trust me that it works" does not count, we get this every day from politicians!
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22-03-2012, 12:14 AM #62
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
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22-03-2012, 12:17 AM #63
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22-03-2012, 12:27 AM #64
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22-03-2012, 01:10 AM #65
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22-03-2012, 01:25 AM #66
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
I have just had a call from Onergy in Australia, I thank them for that.
They have emailed me the technical pack. Authorization was given to post.
The file is to big for me to post sorry boys and girls.
As a useless F*** that I am when come to computers and tinternet, I can not show you this.
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22-03-2012, 01:25 AM #67
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
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22-03-2012, 03:01 AM #68
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Here is a snipet of the technical document
Capture.PNG
Your comments on this part of theory.
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22-03-2012, 06:00 AM #69
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Coldman thinks he can save 16 to 22% energy only by reducing start ups. What a good joke. Show us your calculation so that we can rectify this or explain at least why you're wrong. In a supermarket with a pack, it may cycle at a rate of 30 sec/30sec, the compressors will keep running, only the SV will cycle very short.
I'm surprised you could convince already so many peoples with your Tupperware box filled with perhaps simple gelly. Apparently all very bad technicians bought this or buyers in companies who don't understand the first word about thermodynamics.
You or one of you sales persons tried also to promote this on LinkedIn where there was the same skepticism of the readers.
Like Chillerman remarked, this thread was already picked up by Google's search engines and it's listed now already on the first page.
Endocube, Endocube, Endocube,..go on Google, pick up these last ones.
Endocube Snake Oil for the last timeIt's better to keep your mouth shut and give the impression that you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.
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22-03-2012, 06:10 AM #70
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
And Frigi - aka Coldman - what stupid to act like this .Typical something for a salesman. Do YOU work ever if I count the length of your posts - excluding these on other websites - and the average lines you write/week? You're on the top this week on RE.
It's better to keep your mouth shut and give the impression that you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.
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22-03-2012, 07:18 AM #71
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22-03-2012, 07:26 AM #72
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Mike
forget endocube, I am selling enviro-balls
they may look like a dogs ball and have a few pictures of bones on the side, but trust me they are food safe !
mates rates of course, so $50 each if you buy a 1000
oh and you can get refrigeration managers that know jack diddly to buy them... sorted
R's chillermanIf the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !
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22-03-2012, 07:37 AM #73
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Based on those figures "Mad", 3 minutes on and 2 minutes off gives us a 60% duty cycle.
8 minutes on and 7 minutes off gives us a 53.3% duty cycle. (I may seem a little picky here) but where did the other 6.7% of run/ cooling duty go?..
Maybe it was not accurate minutes logged to begin with.
Coldman,if i am to believe in actual savings without compromising my customers products, than a show of good faith would be an excellent start to your marketing.
I'd take advantage of the 50,000+ members here and hand out a free Endocube to the select few who feel your product is worth our independent test drive, so to speak.... Who knows, it may prove it's worth, or it may crash and burn. Your choice.. (I've given my advice freely @ my expense/hour)To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty.
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22-03-2012, 07:44 AM #74
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Gents
courtesy of Mad Fridgie
https://rapidshare.com/files/2092084...nical_Pack.pdf
R's chillermanIf the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !
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22-03-2012, 07:53 AM #75
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Thanks C.M. AKA, chillerman.
Last edited by mikeref; 22-03-2012 at 07:57 AM. Reason: Argh, that attachment is right on top of the link for page 2.
To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty.
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22-03-2012, 11:43 AM #76
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Speaking to the concept of reducing starts to save energy.
You MAY save a couple of pennies worth of energy by doing this, but if I saw a system cycling off and on every two minutes, I would be questioning the setup of that system, not reaching for an Endocube.
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22-03-2012, 03:24 PM #77
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22-03-2012, 03:48 PM #78
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
The "Technical Pack" is not so very technical, just more sales literature, they claim CCFRA has independantly verified a 26% energy savings, which if true everyone woud want so why dont they publish the data from the study in there technical data sheet. They also claim in that document that there has been extensive in house and independent testing of their product which confirmed a "significant" reduction in energy use. The only reason I can see for them not being willing to share the data with potential customers is that their definition of "significant" and ours probably differ a bit.
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22-03-2012, 08:23 PM #79
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Gents
as all the regulars here would know at a glance this is total bulls-turd
15: “How does endoCube affect the temperature inside the refrigerator or
freezer?”
A: endoCube actually lowers the air (“case”) temperature due to more efficient
cooling and, to compensate for this new lower temperature, the thermostat setting
is adjusted upward. In other words, endoCube achieves the same air temperature
with a higher set point, thus saving energy.
Right so lets break this down,
1: We want an air temp of 2*c so we set our equipment to 2*c
Result is 2*c air temp = X amount of energy used
2: We fit an endoncube so we adjust the set point to 4*c (as they say its 2*c out)
Result is 2*c air temp = exactly the same X amount of energy used
So where's the energy saving, surely buyers of ENDOCUBE Endocube endocube are not that stupid
It's been a long day and am shattered so thats just from a quick read
Can anyone else break down some of this 'Endocube Technical Pack' ?
R's chillerman (oh & aka cm, aint that right mike ?)
Last edited by chillerman2006; 22-03-2012 at 08:25 PM.
If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !
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22-03-2012, 09:16 PM #80
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
JP, I have to agree savings made on start up only would be very small. The inrush current size/time and residual heat caused by the in rush can be calculated, and so savings can be calculated. This data I do not have to predicted with absolute accuracy. (need to come from a comp manufacturer)
Cycling times, will vary from application to application, but the need for close control to ensure food quality is driving this requirement. Are the food techs, giving use wrong info?
Emmett; I have been onto CCFRA, they are unable to furnish any documents (confidentially), I have reworded a question, to confirm that at least some testing has been completed. No response on this one. I have no known contacts within this company.
A tech data sheet would be great, as at least we could analyze this, and check testing methods.
I would check out the Endocube site in the USA, check their results! Looks good to the untrained eye.
The REAL cm.
You talking about an energy mass balance, energy in-energy out. When testing anything, you must always compare apples for apples. That is why companies spend millions on test gear, so that they repeatability. As far as I can see, the endocube data has been cherry picked, to show results. As we all know simple changes in air temp and humidity dramatically changes the refrigeration load and refrigeration equipment performance.
Do a test on a hot and humid day, then a test on a cold dry day. What a great saving I will have made. No changes to anything.
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22-03-2012, 09:33 PM #81
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
haha, just checked "frigi"s email address there, priceless! its kinda sad the lengths they're going to with their lies to make sales. I guess the only good thing is, a google search on endocube brings ya to these threads where they're exposed for the frauds that they are. I know it'd be enough to put me off buying their product anyway...
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25-03-2012, 03:15 AM #82
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
What a classic, how stupid can some people be!!!
To answer the original question...
Endocube = Hoodwink...and she said "give it to me you big fridgie"
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28-03-2012, 10:33 PM #83
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
For weeks we were getting battered on this thread from people saying why are you promoting this product, are you a share holder, well no we are not, and yes we tested because a client asked us too. Everyone is talking about compromising the food with Endocube, and other are talking about liquid run times, defrost cycle reductions etc etc etc. Well I called the company myself, unlike many who keep moaning, and they sent me the full NSF testing information with everything covered on maintaining regulated temperatures and all we needed to know for a certain area we are looking to show another client who we know would ask about certain concerns.
I then was sent a flyer a client was emailed by there utility company offering a rebate on this product. I have worked with clients trying to get rebates on variable speed motors and it is a nightmare. The utilities need a lot of evidence before offering a rebate, and this one particular is one of the largest.
So from a food safety stand point, and an engineering proof it works stand point. I think that have got it covered. and while we keep opening threads. they are getting more interest.
Good luck to them
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28-03-2012, 11:41 PM #84
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
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29-03-2012, 09:04 AM #85
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
I'm pretty sure the NSF stated that the Endocube is foodsafe, the gel inside the box.
I hardly can imagine that they will make statements of the foodsafety in all different refrigeration plant setups. It's like saying that a PTC probe is foodsafe or a PTC more foodsafe than a PT100.It's better to keep your mouth shut and give the impression that you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.
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29-03-2012, 02:18 PM #86
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Mad Fridge. I am sure they would be willing to discuss the food safety side. why don't you ask them and see if they share the same info we have received. maybe this will help not only you, but other who don't care what we have seen.
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29-03-2012, 10:42 PM #87
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31-03-2012, 03:11 AM #88
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Hi MF, my pennies worth
I have the upmost respect Prof Don., that is a given.
Having being in the food industry for what seems multi decades, core temps of product are critical whether being raw chicken products, deep butt temps of quartered beef on the hook, or further processed cooked meat products, rapid chilled or blast frozen,or what ever.
MAF here in NZ have a defined pull down senario/ regime for all and sundry. Dumbing down air temps to save energy would only prolong core temp targets and time frames and promote bacto build ups. Most manufacturers have blast chilling systems that ramp with air temps and governed by core sampling monitoring temps., all data logged for referencing as batch loads and tractability and quality control.
For the after market( after intial processer ) side of things anything is possible, chillers , whatever at supermarkets will do anything to save energy. Effectively the core temp can be maintained with floating air temps, it is a fine line between making people ill and saving energy costs.
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31-03-2012, 07:47 AM #89
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Post of 24 February 2012 of Mechanicalman (one of his/her 27 posts only about Endocube) : "We do have an interest. we have recently started as a dealer representative. but we want to know more on rack systems and not just walk-ins do you know of any application in supermarkets? as the only information we have received is from Europe and not the U.S
So again...sales talk and not real life figures. He/she even admits that they don't have figures for the US for racks. We all have to agree..the only thing that certainly works better then their gel-filled box is their marketing machine. But then again, it all seems for me brain-washed yuppies not aware of the basics of thermodynamics and the working principles of a compressor and a refrigeration plant in general. If it was that good, then we all should have seen it everywhere.It's better to keep your mouth shut and give the impression that you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.
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31-03-2012, 11:36 PM #90
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
I may have it wrong but this talk that the NSF have 'approved' endocube surely only applies to the fact that the endocube 'gel' is safe to use within the 'food' environment.
Brian - Newton Abbot, Devon, UK
Retired March 2015
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31-03-2012, 11:52 PM #91
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Surely this product has had enough "airtime" Guys.
I know how incensed some feel about this product invading "OUR" website.
Sadly, since the personal details of participants has been relaxed.
Any idiot or snake oil salesman can come on the forum and they do not even have to lie about their occupation anymore.
Is it not time for this one to sleep?
GrizzlyLast edited by Grizzly; 31-03-2012 at 11:55 PM.
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31-03-2012, 11:57 PM #92
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
The company sent us the report. it was the same question we asked. maybe safe to use but the report shows how it was tested and all the food types tested against. it has a certificate as a food temperature monitoring and refrigeration control device. in fact the NSF this week have announced that they will now be giving out Energy Star certification on equipment and products which show savings. so it looks like another certification coming this way. I think it is funny how all these people go against the product. but we are satisfied and those who have never seen or used cannot judge. Simple
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01-04-2012, 12:19 AM #93
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
First, I openly admit that I'm nowadays an A/C guy through and through...
However at the beginning of time I started out as a proper fridge guy working mainly on supermarkets.
Now this "endocube" discussion, isn't it really a red herring?
It's not a new technology, in fact, rather the opposite is true... Back when I worked in supermarkets and slaughter houses it was common practise that smaller walk in fridges would have a small bottle of water/bleach solution in a holder on the wall with the thermostat's bulb submerged in it. This was purely to stop the compressor to cycle every time the door were opened.
And it goes back 25+ years, to the good old times before political correctness, HSE on steroids or digital controls.
Now that someone developed it further in to a gel and what I assume is a cubical canister for it... Bah Humbug, doesn't make it something new.
That it's a trade off between quality of produce and energy saving/lifespan of the system? But of course it is, in fact everything are... You could save energy by turning the fridge's thermostat up but you don't, you could get a longer lifespan on the produce by getting it down to 0.2*C within 10 minutes and keeping it within 0.1-0.3*C but you don't.
Endocube?
Increased deadband?
Restart timer?
True on timer?
Thermal weight?
What difference does it make as long as the balance between cost/saving/quality is right?
.
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01-04-2012, 12:33 AM #94
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Mechanicalman.
I hope you will bless us with your enlightenment on other topics in the future!
Or is it only ever to be this one tiresome topic.
By the way it's what you do with the paper that counts and I can think of one use for your soon to be received certificate.
I suppose yours is a quite clever tactic because rear end cube is staying on the forum far longer than it should.
We should thank you for paying towards the upkeep of this forum and for reminding the participants what the majority of them feel about your chosen topic.
The more that argue this point the longer the advert is recognised for what it is.
I should thank you for changing my opinion, maybe we should keep debating this.
At least until the advert period expires anyway.
Many thanks Grizzly
Brilliant points made there Viking.Last edited by Grizzly; 01-04-2012 at 12:36 AM.
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04-04-2012, 07:15 PM #95
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Mad
I thankyou for posting this thread
It brings a chuckle to my chops everytime I get a chance to login
Looking at the high level of experience/knowledge of the regular forum posters here
And Endocube's spin doctors still trying to fool them, is absolutely hilarious
R's chillermanIf the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !
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12-05-2012, 12:06 PM #96
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
I,d like to see the original email to this guy as his reply sounds as though he has been prepped with a loaded question?.
buddy
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12-05-2012, 12:08 PM #97
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12-05-2012, 12:26 PM #98
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
This the original email.
Hi Don,
I hope all is well!
I thought you may be interested about the claims made by the Endocube product. The product is now being heavily pushed in our neck of the woods.
http://www.endocubeinfo.com/
I would appreciate your thoughts and that of the food technologists if you have the time,
warmest regards
Terry
You can make your own mind up if you think I have prepped the prof!
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12-05-2012, 12:37 PM #99
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Hi Chillerman,
I always enjoy your posts but based on your statement about food and beverages all react differently to heat transfer and one device can not accurately imitate them all that is absolutely true. but isnt that the same as having a "range" or an "average" temperature of products in one Cold-room such as a produce cold-room with lettuce, avocados etc stored which has different specific heats and heat transfer?
If we didnt compromise and draw the line somewhere we would have one cold-room for Avacodos, one cold-room for Lettuce, one cold-room for fish, one cold-room for lamb and every other type of food stored with different specific heat and transfer rates in cold-rooms around the World.
So the Endocube compound inside it is doing exactly that, covering a "range" or an"average" just like cold-room storage covers a "range" now all over the World.
We have to draw a line somewhere.
Jeeees hope that makes sense!buddy
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12-05-2012, 12:39 PM #100