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  1. #1
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    Endocube Hoodwink or Science



    I see that Endocube are advertising on this site. Should we allow this?

    I am all for new technologies. and this certainly does not exclude the Endocube.

    There are considerable claims made by the Endocube group of suppliers around energy saving and improved food quality. I challenge any one who is directly or indirectly involved with this product or any similar product to prove their claims, based upon Science and engineering.

    My concern is to the damage that may be done to the reputations of those who are spending considerable amount money, in an attempt to increase efficiency of refrigeration system and or the quality of the products stored with refrigerated areas.

    Have all those in the industry simply been wrong about food quality all these years (including me), and the chaps at Endocube, have indeed found out that our and food technologists are wrong in our assumptions.

    I thank you for all your thoughts.

    Most concerned

    Mad F
    Last edited by mad fridgie; 10-03-2012 at 11:23 PM.



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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Am dubious but reading from the website what they claim does make sense in theory?

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Quote Originally Posted by djbe View Post
    Am dubious but reading from the website what they claim does make sense in theory?
    Which part do you agree with in theory?
    I will accept that longevity of the refrigeration machinery maybe increased due to the reduction in stops and starts. I will also accept that the product may well be an excellent product simulator.

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Quote Originally Posted by mad fridgie View Post
    I see that Endocube are advertising on this site. Should we allow this?
    ................
    I think that they are getting enough bad publicity from that thread to cancel out any potential sales.
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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian_UK View Post
    I think that they are getting enough bad publicity from that thread to cancel out any potential sales.
    I think this is an excellent opportunity for Endocube to increase sales, are we/me just wrong in what we believe to be right. But this does need to be proved with science and engineering.

    I do hope that those from Endocube, can prove the all the claims made! " Not sales/marketing BS"

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Without bias or persuasion, i asked the top brass at this towns IGA supermarket if they would use a device that could save them in maintenance and running costs of their refrigeration systems. The answer was obvious, as we stood next to a dairy case that was spilling cold air onto the floor . This is a locally owned, and a multi award winning business that gives the local Woolworths supermarket a run for their money, so we are not talking about some corner store here and no, i don't do their work. He says: I'm listening. So i explain (as per endocube statement) and the reply was : Nope! If one of the many inspections carried out by a government department saw the dataloggers readout fluctuate in temperature for extended periods, or an un-announced visit by authorities did a random scan on product and supply air temperature, and it was not within government specifications, than he would be forced to close down that particular section and dump the product.
    That seems to close the case. So to speak.
    This business man was interested (as anyone with a brain would be) in potential savings, but was not prepared to stick his neck out.
    A single violation brings down the the grim reaper, and someone has to pay, when we are talking about food storage temperatures .. Mike.
    To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty.

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Well what I ave discovered is that the Endocube approach has been used for years for only one reason. It works.

    What these guys have done is taken the 'home brew' out of it by swapping olive oil or some other such 'home made' solution and putting it into a 'certified' safe -which was the clever bit, easy to use package that is easy to fit and doesn't go off or mess up the refrigeration. Nothing much more than that.

    Go anywhere where electricity has been expensive for years (try the islands in the Med or parts of Asia) and you will find lots of people using the 'Home Brew' approach because they know it works. What has happened is that now electricity cost (finally) is an issue everywhere and this product addresses the growing problem simply, inexpensively and cleverly. If anyone were to tell a supermarket to put olive oil over their probes in the US or Northern Europe they would be laughed out of the place, but the truth is that Southern Europeans have been doing it for decades.

    The real benefit of the Endocube is that it is certified, it is clean, it is standardised and all this is very important for the US and Northern Europe. It also is one hell of a lot cheaper than the rediculous over engineering that a lot of people use to try to address the same problem. Look at the plastic chicken approach that was mentioned on a recent thread. This device and it's follow on of 'slugged probes' 'dampers' etc use a block of metal (or plastic) to register temperature and then use software 'logic systems' to adjust the cycle times according to which product is in the refrigeration. A lot of money is made selling these systems and they are grossly over engineered leaving everyone confused and arguably the produce more vulnerable than ever. However with so much money at stake it's no wonder a simple idea like this Endocube gets so much flack.... Does it work? It works and it works very well, I have seen it in multiple places and it doesn't really matter what FUD Mad Frigie (or any other supposed technical god of refrigeration) says -ultimatley the market is realising it works and is responding accordingly (and not before time).

    This entire thread is simply another attempt by the 'vested interest' community to stop the inevitable. For some time this community really had me fooled. I was so sceptical I wouldn't look at the Endocube. It was only a chance conversation that made me take another look -and then another and then another before I believed. In my opinion Mad Frigie is simply another person with their own axe to grind, putting out FUD into the market. The clue is in the title to the thread 'Hoodwink or science' -in other words 'don't waste your time finding out if this works for yourself (because I don't want you to discover it does)'. Yes -there are lots of practicalities to refrigeration. The point is that by using your head a little you can get great results from the Endocube (or make it look like you don't get results if that is your bag -Mad Figie). To engage in this rediculous debate would be like engaging in a debate with a ludite over the benefits of automation. You shouldn't be convinced one way or the other on this board, you should find out for yourself -in your environment if you think it might work.

    Don't believe me /Think I have my own interest... Please ignore my commments. I have to accept that it does come over a bit like that. My axe is actually I take this energy saving issue seriously because I am a bit like that, but you really don't need to believe that. What I am very pleased to know for sure is that a lot of companies, of many different types, many whom were super sceptical to start with and yes some are VERY large supermarkets (in some of the most regulated countries in the world), are installing this product and getting great results on multiple types of refrigeration as well as on refrigerated trucks, shipping et al. They are having to change their thinking a bit to do so (Air temperature fluctuations are no longer important as long as the product temperature is 'certified' safe -which it is), but their pockets are benefiting. However most importantly the planet is also benefiting as a result. In my opinion everyone is a winner except those with a vested interest in the status quo.....

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Interesting argument there coldmetal.
    Only 1 problem...
    Who are you? what do you do?
    I tend to form opinions based upon someones previous posts and their proof of knowledge Therin.
    So excuse me for being cynical, only all of the guys I have come to accept opinions from.
    Have been on here for a long time, we all gain each others respect or tolerance over time.

    Yours may well turn out to be a valued argument in time.


    Show me some of the old timers that have been convinced then I may consider this product has credence.
    There have been many fine words used in endocubes defence on the forum lately, which I find extremely unpalatable, because no-one else is using the forum to promote a product.
    So why should the followers of endocube, especially newcomers.
    We are all here to help each other and not promote our own interests.
    Many of us, myself included have a vested interest maybe to one of the large manufacturers.

    But we are not running a crusade to indoctrinate.
    If you are eventually proven correct then when that time comes you can feel vindicated.
    But until then can we have a break.
    I as with many have seen similar within our industry before.
    Time will tell!
    Grizzly

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    I'm pretty sure Mad fridgie isn't selling FUD's the probes would fall out for a start....

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_urination_device

    I have a coldroom i would be tempted to try an endocube on, but have yet to have any of its advocates show any facts and figures, or even a purchase price to weight up the cost benefit ratio. Theres been a lot of anecdotal stories but nothing factual, and as engineers we deal in facts an figures. (and some humour as this site is a bit of light relief from the days stresses).

    Is there a tofu version for the veggie market?
    Mostly found in Oxfordshire, UK :)

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    coldmetal.
    The product itself may well be a very good product simulator, and may well be food safe, never argued this point. Thermal inertia devices have been round since dot one. (and have been used for monitoring)
    How ever your thread did not give any technical or engineering proof of why the product saves energy or improves product quality.

    I am all for new products and ideas, this what i do for a living. So I ask a question the scientists, in refrigeration and food technology. Here is the reply. (Prof Don Cleland, a world respected refrigeration academic)

    Terry

    May the Marketers inherit the earth along with the lawyers!

    From a quick look and listen, nothing incorrect but a lot of exaggeration and twisting of facts plus a bit of smoke and mirrors.

    The key generic issue is whether refrigeration systems should be controlled based on product or air temperatures. Many argue for product temperature but there are argument both ways and on balance I tend to support air temperatures. Some of the arguments and rationale are:
    • Putting the thermostat in product (or Endocube) buffers it from air temperature fluctuations so the refrigeration on/off cycle is slowed and a tighter "dead span" on the thermostat can be used. Yes, fewer (longer) on/off cycles can have a equipment maintenance benefit but the energy use benefit should be slight (start power is higher but startup is still a very small faction of the total run-time).
    • Control of product temperature is what really matters so you should use it directly as the control parameter; the counter is that you only know what the product temperature is where the probe is (one position in one product), what about the temperature in products in other positions in the room and in other positions in the same product?; the surface of the product will experience greater temperature fluctuations than an internal position so any benefit on product quality are probably illusionary (temperature variability of thermostat looks more stable but air temperature and hence product surface temperature is still cycling; in fact it is possible that magnitude of temp cycles is higher than with air temp control not lower, but because if you only measure temp in product then you are not aware of air temp fluctuations)
    • Variability in a refrigerated is with both time and position. Measurement of air temperature (preferable multiple probes) allows this to be "seen" and taken into account with controls. Dampering the thermostat response to changes in air temperature increases the risk of air temperatures somewhere in the room getting very hot or very cold (relative to the average) but undetected; if this occurs the product in these areas may experience unacceptable temperatures. Possible results are partial product freezing if the storage temp is just above the freezing point of the product or some product being too warm.
    • Food safety should not be significantly affected by the 2 approaches as the difference in product temps are unlikely to be large and lead to safety issue
    • Food quality can be significantly affected as the difference in temp can be large enough to lead to quality degradation e.g. if surface of product partially freezes because on cycle is prolonged. My view is that the longer refrigeration on/off cycles could lead to greater (not less) product surface temperature variation and hence greater quality issues not less.
    • Ultimately if the air temp is controlled then the product temp will be OK (once cooled to storage temp). However, the opposite is not true. If a product temp is OK, the air temperature (and hence adjacent product surface temp) may be significantly different for short periods of time potentially leading to quality issues.
    • In other words, if you control on product temp then temp control looks good but the actual fluctuations in air and surface temp may be worse than if air temp control was employed; it is just that you are not measuring them anymore.
    For me the best solution is use of multiple air probes so variability in room is measured and taken into account PLUS measures to ensure short-cycling and temperature setpoint over-shoot are minimised e.g. modulating temperature control (e.g. BPR or fan speed) rather than on/off liquid supply; avoid excessive oversizing of refrigeration system etc.

    Even if you decide to go the product temperature way, why buy an endocube? Just put the thermostat in some product - a lot cheaper.

    I hope the above makes some sense. We have been talking about doing a paper at IRHACE and other fora on the issue of product vs air temp control as we are concerned that pracrtice will change without people being aware of the potential downsides.

    Cheers
    Don

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Sorry Mad fridgie.
    Sadly I cannot give you any more rep points as yet.


    What a brilliant report, I wish our (UK) scientists were as pragmatic.

    Now maybe we will be left to discuss more pertinent topics.

    I am looking forward to your Grand prix tomorrow.
    Thanks Grizzly

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Prof Don could well be 'The Don' in a Mafia sense!

    Quote Originally Posted by mad fridgie View Post
    Even if you decide to go the product temperature way, why buy an endocube? Just put the thermostat in some product - a lot cheaper.
    Lots of NHS fridges/freezers have a jelly pack in them. The type you buy for making jelly at home for pudding.

    This is acceptable for their readings and tends to dampen the effects of doors open too long, defrosts and all that jazz. When it's reading time they just stick their calibrated probe in the jelly and note the temperature.

    It also gives the interior of the cabinet a subtle strawberry, rasberry, blackberry or cherry aroma depending flavour.
    Bet an Endocube doesn't do that!

    Cheers,
    Andy.
    Health and safety first..........unless I'm in a hurry.

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Now being employed as a Manager in a plant that belongs to a corporation with 40,000 employees I can tell you where a big problem is. Mikeref is entirely correct.
    Walmart purchases products from us. In order to do business with them we have to follow what is called the SQF (Safe Quality Food) code. It is a long, constantly evolving document. Complying with it is not negotiable if you want to do business with Walmart.
    We use data-loggers to monitor the air temperatures in our plant. Product temperatures are monitored when raw product is delivered and before the finished product is packed.
    We have very strict rules about how long different products can be in a out of range condition. Any variance in the data-loggers must be explained and logged.
    SQF will not accept product temperatures instead of air temperatures.
    We maintain 36 to 38 degrees F air temperature. Any delay in opening the LLS to the coils could push over 40. With a dock door being opened or a load of product which does not require being refrigerated being unloaded and temporarily stored in the the refrigerated area we can have a sudden load swing. Endocube would not be allowed to be used.
    Sorry guys. It may save energy or have other benefits, but we cannot use it.

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Griz, the Grand Prix is Australia. Melbourne, wish i was there, can not afford the wife shopping while i am watching!!!
    I give a CHALLENGE to ENDOCUBE, your sales literature indicates upto 30% saving, so the challenge is to prove how you save 24% savings over a system without the Endocube which is a 20% reduction in your claims. Science and engineering please. Refrigeration fundamentals will do!
    So to make it easy, i will give you of an example of another energy saving product (I do not sell or promote)
    I cold room has a requirement of 1kw of cooling (24kwhrs/day) This includes the 100w standard evap fan motor. The refrig cond unit is designed to run 18hrs/day (1.333Kw)and has a COP of 3 Power draw 0.444kw
    So daily draw is 8kw + 2.4Kw =10.4Kw
    We now change the evap fan for a EC fan that draws 30watts, so we save 70watts power direct and 70watts of parasitic load on the refrig system
    So our savings are 24*70 = 1.68Kw plus (24*70*0.33) 0.554Kw = Total saved 2.234Kw Saving 21.5%. (steady state of course)
    So come Endocube prove your product!!

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Hi MF,
    totally agree about Prof Clelland, the local guru, there is a brother as well, talk about keeping it in the family. Wonder what they talk about over a beer.
    We should plan a trip to Melbourne next year for GP., did the 2002 trip what a blast. We should plan a service trip and leave the other halves/spending people at home, just a thought.

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Hello NH3LVR.
    I totaly agree, food quality is the primary mover with respect to chiller and freezer and product temps.
    I have had some success with smaller producers in NZ, with off production periods when systems start to cycle, then with PLC's add off cycle fan cycling and timer driven sample air checks, always at night when structure loads are minimal and low traffic loads in stores.

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    I couldn't resist this (But I wish I could......)

    Prof Don report:

    'The key generic issue is whether refrigeration systems should be controlled based on product or air temperatures. Many argue for product temperature but there are argument both ways and on balance I tend to support air temperatures. Some of the arguments and rationale are:

    CM: Using Air Temperature to control the refrigeration cycling is like using the weather to determine what the traffic levels on the freeway will be. It might give you an indication but it is not -to any degree, accurate. And that lack of accuracy could and does cause dramatic inefficiency unnecessarily. There are many products on the market designed to overcome this problem, because it is a big problem, of which Endocube is just one.

    Putting the thermostat in product (or Endocube) buffers it from air temperature fluctuations so the refrigeration on/off cycle is slowed and a tighter "dead span" on the thermostat can be used. Yes, fewer (longer) on/off cycles can have a equipment maintenance benefit but the energy use benefit should be slight (start power is higher but startup is still a very small faction of the total run-time).

    CM: But it is the time when the biggest of power, by far, occurs. Consider driving your car 200 miles and stopping and starting 150 times on the way, don't think your fuel consumption will rise? You bet it will. It is exactly the same with refrigeration? This is actually widely recognized and is one (admittedly of a few) of the reasons why people use systems like PACKS, to try and mitigate against this. Once your refrigeration is up and cycling (as long as it is working properly) it is using minimal power.

    Control of product temperature is what really matters so you should use it directly as the control parameter; the counter is that you only know what the product temperature is where the probe is (one position in one product), what about the temperature in products in other positions in the room and in other positions in the same product?;

    CM: I could not agree with the second part of this statement. This is an issue regardless of whether you are using Air or Product temperatures to control your refrigeration. If it is an issue (in either circumstance) you should have more probes -which could equally use product temperature to control the refrigeration. In other words this point has no merit whatsoever either way.

    the surface of the product will experience greater temperature fluctuations than an internal position so any benefit on product quality are probably illusionary (temperature variability of thermostat looks more stable but air temperature and hence product surface temperature is still cycling; in fact it is possible that magnitude of temp cycles is higher than with air temp control not lower, but because if you only measure temp in product then you are not aware of air temp fluctuations)

    CM: So this is why the Endocube is actually so clever. Because it is certified by the NSF as maintaining product temperature as at 10mm below the surface of a wide range of control products (within a perfectly acceptable range of variance). We already know that it works using 'Products' because half of Southern Europe (and beyond) are doing it. But that isn't really Certified, so for the regualated West this Certification, along with the practicality of the Endocube is what is important. Yes the Air temperature might be all over the place but that no longer matters. Bottom line is that Product changes temperature a LOT slower than Air (even the most temperature volatile food groups).


    Variability in a refrigerated is with both time and position. Measurement of air temperature (preferable multiple probes) allows this to be "seen" and taken into account with controls. Dampering the thermostat response to changes in air temperature increases the risk of air temperatures somewhere in the room getting very hot or very cold (relative to the average) but undetected; if this occurs the product in these areas may experience unacceptable temperatures.


    CM: See my comments regarding the point there is no difference between measuring product temperature and measuring Air Temp -if you need more measurement points (and sometimes you, that is patently obvious) then you should have them. Just measure the product temperature at those points -not Air Temp.


    Possible results are partial product freezing if the storage temp is just above the freezing point of the product or some product being too warm.

    CM: How are you going to get 'Partial product freezing' if you are using Product Temp at 10mm below the surface to control the refrigeration cycles... Sorry this is total FUD. Also totally unproven by experience.

    Food safety should not be significantly affected by the 2 approaches as the difference in product temps are unlikely to be large and lead to safety issue

    CM: We agree on something.....

    Food quality can be significantly affected as the difference in temp can be large enough to lead to quality degradation e.g. if surface of product partially freezes because on cycle is prolonged. My view is that the longer refrigeration on/off cycles could lead to greater (not less) product surface temperature variation and hence greater quality issues not less.


    CM: This flys in the face of experience. Measured 'Product Temperature variation are significantly reduced by the longer cycles, not increased. Since these variations are reduced the food quality is often improved and life span often increases. There are no guarantees as to these benefits though, since it will depend on product type.

    Ultimately if the air temp is controlled then the product temp will be OK (once cooled to storage temp). However, the opposite is not true. If a product temp is OK, the air temperature (and hence adjacent product surface temp) may be significantly different for short periods of time potentially leading to quality issues.

    CM: Again FUD. If this were really the case why would you say that Food Safety is not compromised.

    In other words, if you control on product temp then temp control looks good but the actual fluctuations in air and surface temp may be worse than if air temp control was employed; it is just that you are not measuring them anymore.

    CM: But that is the point. When you control on Product Temperature Air temperature no longer is relevant to the equation. If you know your product temperature is OK (which experience shows it is) why worry about Air Temperature?


    For me the best solution is use of multiple air probes so variability in room is measured and taken into account PLUS measures to ensure short-cycling and temperature setpoint over-shoot are minimised e.g. modulating temperature control (e.g. BPR or fan speed) rather than on/off liquid supply; avoid excessive oversizing of refrigeration system etc.

    CM: In some circumstances you should indeed mulitple probes -but using Product measurement not Air measurement on those probes is a perfectly good and viable option. It is also common practice.

    Even if you decide to go the product temperature way, why buy an endocube? Just put the thermostat in some product - a lot cheaper.

    CM: True except that:

    People in the US and Northern Europe don't do it today because it is messy and not certified. Using Jelly (as suggested in another post) would probably provide some benefit -but ultimately I wouldn't want to be telling H&S that was our approach when a certified (and non messy) option was available relatively cheaply. Since the Endocube also sells into countries that have practiced the use of Food stuffs for years I can only assume they find the practicalities of the solution provided by Endocube a preferable option as well (even though they often don't have such strict regulation.

    Even if you decide to go the product temperature way, why buy an endocube? Just put the thermostat in some product - a lot cheaper.

    CM: Because it isn't done (in the supposedly advanced Western world) otherwise -because it is both impractical and not certified. Endocube changes that....

    I hope the above makes some sense. We have been talking about doing a paper at IRHACE and other fora on the issue of product vs air temp control as we are concerned that pracrtice will change without people being aware of the potential downsides.

    CM: Saints help us. There are no down sides.... None of the reasoning above makes good sense. If you want to control something then it is obvious to all that it is sensible to control it, based upon IT, not some spurious connected factor....

    It is obvious to everyone (regardless of the Endocube or not) that using Air Temperature, as a measure to control product temperature, is both wasteful and inefficient and arguably more dangerous, since the two vary widely. In the past this hasn't mattered so much, but this fact is changing fast. It is the reason that some Supermarkets have invested millions in structures to avoid the problem -but often ended up putting in ridiculously over complex systems. It has been a money spinner for manufacturers and all at a very high cost for the client base & the environment. Now people are beginning to see through this, Endocube is just a sign of this.

    Using the reputation of high sounding organizations such as IRHACE and others to hide a patently obvious truth because it is inconvenient to the refrigeration industry is not going to stop the market realizing the truth about this issue. Making up rather weak 'FUD' to try and cover up the truth is a poor way to proceed.

    Mad Fridgie: I admit I do not have a direct answer to the challenge you have posted. Only experience of seeing the product work well many times. Indeed the only time I have seen it actually fail to deliver savings was tracked back to an Engineer who actually disconnected the device during a trial (More vested interest I guess). So I leave your challenge that to Endocube to answer, if they are monitoring this site or can be bothered. However I must admit I am so disappointed with the levels of cynicism in some of these comments, flying in the face of the bleeding obvious, I am very tempted to go away and answer the challenge myself, since as I said I know of many sites where these devices are in use. Time/time /time.

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Gents

    just a flying visit, so very brief

    'IF' product is at its required temp, then control of air temp maintains that product temp, simple

    why is/would there be a requirement to monitor product temp if air temp is constant

    can see the benefit of endocube for bringing a product to temperature but not for maintaining

    R's chair polishing ex chillerman
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    NH3LVR

    I totally understand that Air Temp is used in many places. I know of many myself.

    However I think the view on this is changing as it is becoming easy and more practical to control from Product Temp. Products like Endocube are making that a real possibility. Excitingly they are actually addressing the issue in a retro fit way (not just changing what is coming). Hopefully at some stage WALLMART and others will change their policy on this, especially when they see the benefits some companies are getting from it already. Of course Prof Don and his colleagues at IRHACE might manage to maintain their money making schemes on the issue for some time... One also has to remember that it is not just manufacturers making money from this Air Temp debate, it is also those managing large refrigeration infrastructures... If their budgets are higher then their incomes are higher so it has done them no harm to 'up' the stakes over the years. In the not to distant past the mere threat of H&S issues would have been enough to quieten those questioning the approach. Now, because of rising energy prices those attitudes are challenged (and have been shown to be illusiory).
    Of course this situation is not unique, far from it. Lots of industries suffer from the 'vested industry' problem. As I said in an earlier post the issue will not be decided on this board -but by consistent evidence of the benefits, that is hard to argue with but it has only become possible to invest in proving due to the high and rising costs of energy. It is the only reason this debate is being had (Sadly -because I think the environment is actually the important thing). But money talks and what we are seeing here is a result of the tension between the status quo (making money out of an old understanding and approach) and a new money making opportunity (making money by providing a new way to ovecome an old problem efficiently). We are mere pawns in this process, but I hate seeing vested interest use FUD to overcome the issue. My posting here is simply done because I can't stand to see people using FUD to maintain a BS and detrimental situation. If someone can make money changing it then good luck to them I say. I guess again that some will question my motives but then it is actually the arguement that counts.

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Chillerman

    Then your brevity is stopping you thinking the issue through. If you can see the benefit of Endocube achieving for bringing produce to temperature then it is obvious that there is much MORE benefit using product temp to maintain the product temp (Air temp is an expensive distraction).

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Still no explaination as to where you are in the food chain Coldmetal?
    And why the crusade?
    Grizzly

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmetal View Post
    Chillerman

    Then your brevity is stopping you thinking the issue through. If you can see the benefit of Endocube achieving for bringing produce to temperature then it is obvious that there is much MORE benefit using product temp to maintain the product temp (Air temp is an expensive distraction).
    Coldmetal

    nothing stops me thinking except liquor, I dont drink no more

    I currently work for the biggest user of refrigeration in the uk

    they supply chilled and frozen products

    and I can not see one instance they would be better off using your product

    the flaw in your system is when heat enters the area being cooled

    it is a race between the cooling system and the product as to which one the heat is transfered to

    with the delay in your system waiting for the product to rise in temperature the race is lost

    the current system of monitering air temp with a adequately specced system

    will prevent the produce from rising in temperature

    frozen is simple you want -22 set the endocube for -26, product stays below -22, sorted

    but chilled especially fresh is another ball game, which without acurate constant control reduces product shelf life

    with the possibility of fluctuating temps of produce running endocube

    I would not advise my client to use your product

    why not answer the questions put to you by the other posters

    1. what is your stake/position within endocube

    2. lets have some facts/figures & science to back up your claims

    or do yourself a favour and ask for your posts here to be deleted as this website is used by everyone from trainee to top designers, specifiers ect and everyone in between and so far your system is looking like what a very clever designer would call 'snake oil'

    if you cant convince the great minds involved in this thread, then time for the bank manager to pull the plug on endocube

    theres no fools here coldmetal, show us the facts and everyone will sing along with you

    R's chillerman aka CM ( so no nicking my acronym either )
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Coldmetal, no proof, no go!
    You do not understand the food cold chain or refrigeration systems. Food safety and food quality are different
    Mine and others vested interest is only that those who do not have knowledge of such things, do not get "ripped off".
    I shall NOT pass on your comments onto Prof Don! Your comments are not worthy of his time!
    Last edited by mad fridgie; 18-03-2012 at 08:17 PM.

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Chillerman, welcome back, hope all is well with the new job! I have not been back to the UK since our last chit chat.

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Coldmetal, do I really smell some Endocube selling promo talks here? I bet you are or the manufacturer or a local seller. Prove your statements with figures like several already asked you. Or show us a detailed study of a plant, before and after using your...sorry, the Endocube. You still think you can change nature laws like you wish. If your plant is running longer, then it will gradually lower its LP because air temperature will drop. Right. So lowering then also its efficiency.
    It's better to keep your mouth shut and give the impression that you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Thanx MF

    yeah all is good cheers, hope to catch up when you do

    another thing that has struck me with this product monitoring, is what happens when there is an equipment failure

    with air monitoring you get an alarm which allows you 'time' to either rectify the problem [if possible] or move the goods before their temperature rises... if monitoring product temps I can see a lot of food going in the skip

    not being cynical Coldmetal, I'm all for new idea's but if I dont see some evidence of this working and soon... I am gonna have to raise this product as a concern so we dont find this on equipment we look after and causing us grief... also we have to keep our clients best interests at heart and keep them informed of products worth considering and those to avoid

    you might be intersted to know that our clients amongst others include, Asda, Morrisons, Tesco & Sainbury's and as I presume these are targets for your sales... it would be wise to show some evidence of benefits and alleviate our concerns

    R's chillerman
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
    Still no explaination as to where you are in the food chain Coldmetal?
    And why the crusade?
    Grizzly
    Why the crusade? $$$ Noticed now this is also became a paying left side banner on RE.
    It's better to keep your mouth shut and give the impression that you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    I just listened to the voice over for a few seconds and it immediatly triggered another concern

    ''endocube mimicks the properties of food and beverage''

    well thats just finished it for me

    food and beverages all react differently to heat transfer and one device can not accuratly immitate them all

    Sorry Coldmetal but endocube is on my list to advise as avoid

    R's chillerman
    Last edited by chillerman2006; 18-03-2012 at 11:46 AM.
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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Coldmetal, If I see a message of someone saying he can save 2 % or 5% on energy costs, then I'm really interested.
    But if someone claims savings from 20 up to 30%, then we all, 20 to 40 years in business, technicians into all our bones must be real fools, the worst technicians ever walked around on this planet or ....(fill in yourself)
    As said previously, you can't change nature laws. And you never gave in your 4 posts one valid point which indicates even 1% saving. You're clearly a salesperson and not a technician who understands how a machine really can save energy. Start/stops decrease is not one of these.
    There's no cynicism in the posts of us, but there's a lot of criticism in it.
    It's better to keep your mouth shut and give the impression that you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Ooooh... Where to start.....

    Mad Fridgie
    Of course Food Satey and Food Quality are different things !??! But thanks for sharing that with us.
    Am devestated the Don won't hear my comments;-). Probably cos he wouldn't really have much to say. He actually says in that report that 'on balance' he comes down on using Air temeperature -but this is hardly a 'You must use Air Temperature' statement. He then goes on to basically try to position things slightly in favour of using Air Temperature -because he probably works with or for someone who has a vested interest in this approach.


    Peter_1
    There is no point in me indulging in this here. Where I have used the Endocube is probably different to where you will be using it (or most probably NOT using it) to where Mad Fridgie will be NOT using it etc. It's going to work differently in different places and the only way you will find out if it works or not is to try it with an open mind and try to make it work. Something you all seem to have decided not too, which is fine. I have an idea -Don't use it -will that make you all happier or are you on some mission to stop other people trying it for some reason??? All I have really said here is that I know it works (gives energy savings) in lots of circumstances and, as far as I am aware, there has never been a food related problem. Given the hundred thousand or so already sold one must consider they must have something more than sales hype -but that seems to upset a lot of people ;-))

    Chillerman
    You obviously believe in brevity when investigating something that is supposed to bring so much benefit. Your comment about different foodstuffs and different temperatures is spot on, expect that what the Endocube is certified (by the NSF) to do is to change temperature at the same rate as a wide variety of control products (within a perfectly acceptable degree of variance). That is why it is better than using Jelly (which interestingly no one here seems to think is a bad idea and even Prof Don thinks it would work). Why so upset about a certified product doing it then?!?!?

    As it happens I am not in the food chain on Endocube, we all are though if you are concerned about environmental issues -but that doesn't really matter. And if you want to believe I am then please feel free. But when I have seen a product working and followed it for a while and I see this kind of biased nonsense I am compelled to comment. Doesn't mean I know all the answers.

    Chilllerman again.
    As it happens I know at least one of the four Supermarkets you mention above has installed 1000's of Endocubes -does that make you think a little harder about it?. According to their refrigeration manager it has had absolutley no adverse effects across a lot of different types of refrigeration, and they bought them after several months of trials. I know him personally so I am not going to reveal which one of these it is, which would be a gross breach of confidence to name him or them -but it is absolutely the case. I have no idea whether the other three are investors in the device or not, but I do know of at least one other large Supermarket chain that has already installed hundreds.

    It seems to me that, whilst I agree I am appearing rather pro the Endocube here, a lot of people are being, shall we say, unduly cynical, especially when the one thing they have in common is they all admit that none of them have had any actual experience of trying the solution???

    Looking forward to the fall out from that one!!

    CM.

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmetal View Post
    Peter_1
    There is no point in me indulging in this here. Where I have used the Endocube is probably different to where you will be using it (or most probably NOT using it) to where Mad Fridgie will be NOT using it etc. It's going to work differently in different places and the only way you will find out if it works or not is to try it with an open mind and try to make it work. Something you all seem to have decided not too, which is fine. I have an idea -Don't use it -will that make you all happier or are you on some mission to stop other people trying it for some reason??? All I have really said here is that I know it works (gives energy savings) in lots of circumstances and, as far as I am aware, there has never been a food related problem. Given the hundred thousand or so already sold one must consider they must have something more than sales hype -but that seems to upset a lot of people ;-))
    Rubbish and poppyc0ck.

    You are trying to tell us that the laws of physics are different in different places, now?

    I defy you to prove your claims. I don't believe that you can and, therefore you are trying to belittle and discredit those of us that know the truth and will tell the truth about this particular widget.

    The famed P.T. Barnum is alleged to have said "There is a sucker born every minute." and I believe that this is the motto adopted by many who are in the business of selling widgets and gadgets such as this one.
    Last edited by Brian_UK; 19-03-2012 at 10:54 PM. Reason: altered the *'s

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Sorry, didn't realize that was a censored word. My apologies.
    [edit]Don't worry about it, Brian
    Last edited by Brian_UK; 19-03-2012 at 10:55 PM. Reason: added note

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Gentlemen,
    It appears that coldmetal has repeatadly answered Mad Fridgie's original question "hoodwink or science", given that he has not provided any science as yet.

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Oh 2

    Peter_1
    Your comment about lowering effieciency shows you haven't really taken in how the Endocube works -you can forget about Air Temp..

    And Chilllerman again
    Fair point :-Alarms based on Air Temp do need to be modified, to work on Product temp. Often this is not a problem as it is as easy as putting an Endocube onto a monitoring probe -but there are systems out there that this more complex and you would obviously need to take this into consideration when installing.

    CM

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmetal View Post
    Oh 2

    Peter_1
    Your comment about lowering effieciency shows you haven't really taken in how the Endocube works -you can forget about Air Temp..

    And Chilllerman again
    Fair point :-Alarms based on Air Temp do need to be modified, to work on Product temp. Often this is not a problem as it is as easy as putting an Endocube onto a monitoring probe -but there are systems out there that this more complex and you would obviously need to take this into consideration when installing.

    CM
    Your comments repeatedly prove that you don't understand how the refrigeration system works.

    Peter_1 is correct and, until you understand why you'll never be anything other than a snake oil peddler.

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    JPsmith1cm

    Apology accepted...
    No -the laws of physics are obviously the same. Not trying to say that at all. But the use of the device will have different results on different refrigeration in different circumstances.

    I would like to give you all a bit more science -really would -and perhaps one day will. But, as I said originally, I really don't have the time at the moment to do/get done such a piece of work so I am going to have to decline. If you are really interested why don't you ask the actual food chain?

    CM

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmetal View Post
    JPsmith1cm

    Apology accepted...
    No -the laws of physics are obviously the same. Not trying to say that at all. But the use of the device will have different results on different refrigeration in different circumstances.

    I would like to give you all a bit more science -really would -and perhaps one day will. But, as I said originally, I really don't have the time at the moment to do/get done such a piece of work so I am going to have to decline. If you are really interested why don't you ask the actual food chain?

    CM
    You have time to post mis-leading information, but do not have the time to give us the science that you claim to have???

    Why am I suspicious?

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    And JPsmith1cm again
    It is not that I don't understand how refrigeration works, it is clear that you have not bothered to think through how the Endocube works....

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Since it is also operating more efficiently less energy is used.
    Just installing a product analog on the thermostat probe will not increase system efficiency.

    Multiple case studies have demonstrated that refrigeration units use between 10% to 30% less energy with Endocube, while maintaining the desired temperature in the unit.
    Show me. Until then, I will not believe anything.

    I've sat and thought about this quite extensively. I think that there may be some merit to the method, but NOT, NOT, NOT for efficiency. If anything, you will see reduced efficiency.

    All you are offering is a modification to the control scheme. Putting a coat of paint on a pile of dung doesn't change the pile of dung into a masterpiece. It is still dung, just with a fresh coat of paint.

    This is analagous to what you're offering.

    "put our widget on your system and save money."

    I could easily select case studies in which the exact opposite would be true.
    Last edited by jpsmith1cm; 19-03-2012 at 04:57 PM. Reason: Correcting typos

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Quote Originally Posted by jpsmith1cm View Post
    Sorry, didn't realize that was a censored word. My apologies.
    Not to worry JP...it's an auto censor deleting the bad language.
    I'm back on the Pale

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmetal View Post
    It is not that I don't understand how refrigeration works, it is clear that you have not bothered to think through how the Endocube works....
    Coldmetal

    you have not shown one ounce of technical knowledge, just spin doctors drool

    I have tried to look at the cube with an open mind

    specific heat !

    all products have a different specific heat value and the cube can only mimic one

    with this in mind how can the cube accurately replicate the heat transfer properties of all products ? ? ?

    R's chillerman
    Last edited by chillerman2006; 20-03-2012 at 07:34 AM.
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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Jpsmith1cm

    Well now we are talking.

    What my experience is is that once you install the product you find that the refrigeration cycles are considerably reduced just as they say, but they are also extended. So when the compressor does come on it is on longer. Not really a surprise, since it isn't responding to Air anymore it takes longer to cool product. I don't think anyone would question that. (Maybe someone will surprise me).

    But what happens next, and this takes longer on some equipment (typically on larger equipment -sometimes even upto 2 weeks) than on other types is that the equipment starts to run more smoothly. It is as though the compressor is actually happier running for longer but less often. If you know your equipment well you will feel it, like a well tuned car humming perfectly. Also factors such as the refrigerant is getting time to circulate properly, pressures equalise properly etc,etc. This is what I think they mean by 'efficiency improves'.

    What is more interesting is that, over time, the temperature of the product drops (and what I mean by that is all the product -including newly introduced produce). This means you can then adjust your set point accordingly, nearly always by one or two points upwards. I monitor this with a data logger to make sure it's safe. The range of varience of the temperature of the food also reduces, which is where the food quality sometimes improves.

    Anyway, that is what I think they are talking about when they refer to efficiency and I believe it is due to the longer cycles as well as the reduced number of cycles. Certainly if we think in terms of a car it is not at it's most efficient in the first few minutes before start up, it is also not very good for a car to keep stopping and starting and the advise with cars was always to make sure they regularly have a good run, why? because it will improve the overall efficiency of the engine!.

    Now obviously the level of efficiency gain will be different for different compressors and due to a lot of other factors the overall benefit will be different in different refrigeration. But my belief is that this is the principle at work here.

    I am actually not sure how one would measure this 'overall increase in efficiency' scientifically unless you look at factors such as energy consumption, food safety and food quality and possibly equipment lifespan. And all I am saying is that in my experience is, on those measures, it does a very good job, broadly in line with the claims they make. Obviously the equipment lifespan issue is much harder to measure but it makes sense to me and the anacdotal evidence is strong.

    They don't, as far as I am aware, say that the Endocube is going to solve all the problems of refrigeration or that it will fix other types of faults. Because I can tell you that if you have other problems with your refrigeration (faulty compressors, bad location or poor service condition) then you will not solve your problem and quite possibly not get the benefits you hope for. But assuming your equipment is in reasonable shape expect a reasonable result.

    'To be skeptical is fine; cynical is silly, biased is stupid'

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Guys!
    May I suggest we stop answering these heavily biased posts from coldmetal and others.
    I have just googled Universal Master Products.
    Who are the Manufacturers etc of Endocube whose Business Development manager is a Richard Roy.
    Coldmetals email is MProy@ hotmail.co.uk therefore as I have never had an answer as to who we are talking to?

    I can only assume a vested interest.

    So unless you want to keep talking about this Krap?
    Just back off and the system will eject the post as per any other unanswered post.
    Or should it be reported as SPAM?
    Grizzly
    Last edited by Grizzly; 19-03-2012 at 08:48 PM.

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    HAHA The name's Grizzly... 00Grizzly Licensed to Google

    Been keeping an eye on this one ,the only thing I got out of it was dizzy from Coldmetal talking ring's around everyone but providing fook all along the line of Hard facts.

    Cheers
    Stu
    Last edited by stufus; 19-03-2012 at 08:51 PM. Reason: oo for uc
    Tool's ? check ! Condom's ? check !
    If you can't fix it , f*ck it !!!

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
    Guys!
    May I suggest we stop answering these heavily biased posts from coldmetal and others.
    I have just googled Universal Master Products.
    Who are the Manufacturers etc of Endocube whose Business Development manager is a Richard Roy.
    Coldmetals email is MProy@ hotmail.co.uk therefore as I have never had an answer as to who we are talking to?

    I can only assume a vested interest.

    So unless you want to keep talking about this Krap?
    Just back off and the system will eject the post as per any other unanswered post.
    Or should it be reported as SPAM?
    Grizzly
    Hi Grizzly

    I think leave it up there as anyone who 'googles' the cube will end up here

    See the facts and arguments against

    And see ZERO proof from the manufacturers spin doctor [well spotted cluesoe]

    R's chillerman
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    out of intrest how hygroscopic is snake oil- and why cant i get any from climate ctr

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Coldmetal, you read what you want see. I have not passed on the info to Prof Don, I would not embarrass myself by passing on your comments. They contain no engineering or scientific opinion for him to comment on.
    Please provide an energy mass balance of a system with and without the endocube.(refrigeration engineering)
    please provide a scientific paper, that counter argues the presumed norm of close control of food products. This should include effects of enzymatic, bacterial and of internal and external vapour pressure on the quality and longevity of food products (food technology).
    You keep saying that we have a vested interest, a vested interest in what. I will tell you from my point of view. I have a vested interest in the "TRUTH".
    You prove to use that it works,(as you keep claiming), then you will have at least one convert. But to date you have not given one piece of evidence that can back up your claims.
    There well may be 100,000s sold, your marketing pitch is excellent and to those who do not know or understand the cold food chain, your pitch is convincing, hence the orders. But this is an engineering site, with many experts from all over the world, who because of our knowledge or lack of sometimes "why we ask and question", can make highly educated appraisals based upon facts.

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Sherlock Grizzly. "the man"
    The last statement made by coldmetal, clearly shows he knows FA about refrigeration.
    But what a business 100,000s sold at what I believe is $300 a pop, WOW, I wish I was dishonest and not "mad",
    I too could be a rich blow hard.

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Quote Originally Posted by install monkey View Post
    out of intrest how hygroscopic is snake oil- and why cant i get any from climate ctr
    snake oil is really good for lubricating snakes. ask any self respecting snake!

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Nice one grizzly!

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