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Thread: TK -3 way valve theory???
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12-08-2011, 02:13 AM #1
TK -3 way valve theory???
hi guys, i have a question about the TK 3-way valve working theory. Generally, i understand how it works, but in terms of the "condenser Pressure Bypass Check Valve", I was told that it improves 3-way valve heat-to-cool response time, how does that improve it? If there is no this condenser pressure bypass check valve, i didn't see anything difference as it shifts from heat to cool mode? could any one tell me about that in very very details?
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12-08-2011, 02:34 AM #2
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
Hi reeferj
If my memory serves me correctly
Just like on a cold day when 'if' the system was to run without a cbcv your head pressure would be to low & you would over condensing - starving the txv of a clear feed of liquid
remember how you partially block the condensor on cold days to check for correct charge on units that do not have cbcv's
Same thing when it switchs from heat to cool
It allows the head pressure to build quicker by bypassing the condensor
And as you need a set pressure at a set temperature to condense
You in effect go into full cooling mode quicker
Does that make sense ?If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !
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15-08-2011, 03:52 AM #3
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
Thanks Chillerman so much, but in the cbcv has two things, one is the bypassing function, which is like what you said, when pilot solenoid closes, it can build up the pressure quickly on the valve condenser side. I understand this function. However, the other thing is the check valve, it only allows ***** to flow from condenser to discharge vibe, it won't work the other way, what is this function? why?
If it just had the bypassing channel only, no check valve, it seems the valve still works fine, doesn't it?
When it is in heat or defrost mode, the condenser side of 3-way valve is almost 0 psig or very small pressure, so the check valve always closes, how's that improve the heat-to-cool respond time?
If I front seat the check valve, no ***** flows, it doesn't make any difference, right?
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15-08-2011, 09:32 AM #4
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15-08-2011, 02:16 PM #5
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
stop liquid refrigerant flowing back to 3-way valve? Where is the liquid ***** from? I still didn't get how this check valve's function, and why we need it there.
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15-08-2011, 03:12 PM #6
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
Hi reeferj
There are two check valves that stop condensed/liquid refrigerant from flowing back to the 3way valve + compressor
They are - condensor bypass check valve & condensor check valve
Not only does the unit condense refrigerant in the condensor but it also condense's refrigerant in the tubework that bypass's the condensor when ever pressures are low enough not to require the use of the condenser
When you look at a refrigerant compareter/slide rule
If you look at any given pressure (discharge/suction pressure)
and then go straight up to the corresponding temperature
This is the refrigerants saturated temperature
If you then take a touch probe & measure the tubework (bypassed or condensor outlet etc)
If the refrigerant is condensed you will have a temperature lower than
The corresponding temperature on the compareter for that pressure
If the temperature is equal - it's saturated (as above)
If it's a higher temperature - its superheated
Does that make sense mateIf the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !
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15-08-2011, 03:42 PM #7
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
Based on what you said, that small check valve in 3-way valve is not necessary part for the system to work. Even in the design, that small check valve in 3-way valve can be taken way and wont' affect the 3-way valve function.
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15-08-2011, 03:44 PM #8
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
just keep the bypassing tube in 3-way valve, that is enough for the 3-way way. no that small check valve in the 3-way valve and block that, there is no refrigerant migration at all!
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15-08-2011, 03:47 PM #9
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
let's focus on the small check valve in the 3-way valve. what is its function? if just for stopping liquid refrigeration migration. that why in the designing, it has to be there. why just no this small check in the 3-way valve?
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15-08-2011, 04:47 PM #10
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
hi reeferj
If I am understanding your question correctly
Your talking about the little service valve on the 3way valve
What that is for is just to check if the 3way valve is sealing or needs a service kit
How to use it=
You run the unit and wind in the valve
immediatly stop the unit & with a jumper wire you energise the pilot solenoid
whilst watching your discharge gauge
when the pressure settles
you de-energise the pilot solenoid
and watch your discharge gauge
if the pressure stays stable the 3way valve is working correctly
If the pressure rises then the 3way valve is letting by & not sealing
R's chillermanIf the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !
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16-08-2011, 04:49 AM #11
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
ohohohohoh, it makes sense, this little check valve is just for checking if 3-way valve works properly or not. it does make sense. it is a tool for our technician. Thank you so much, very very much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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16-08-2011, 11:46 AM #12
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17-08-2011, 05:02 AM #13
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17-08-2011, 05:25 AM #14
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
hi Boss302, could you explain it in details, please? how does that work?
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17-08-2011, 06:07 AM #15
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
3 way valve.jpg Hope this helps. I don't believe TK started using the check valve until they started running R502, due to the higher head pressure.
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17-08-2011, 10:21 AM #16
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17-08-2011, 02:10 PM #17
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
The "Little service valve on the 3-way valve" is part of the condenser pressure bypass check valve. I believe you didn't read the post properly. That is what he asked about. The check valve is not there for checking the 3-way valve for functioning correctly. I understood exactly what he was asking about.
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17-08-2011, 02:17 PM #18
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
Well after your post here, as I have not touched one for 15 years (dirty work moved on up), double checked with ThermoKing Engineers that I worked with & still see often, both said the same thing, Strange
Plus I have carried this procedure out at least 300 times, on annual/major services, it works try it !Last edited by chillerman2006; 17-08-2011 at 02:39 PM.
If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !
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17-08-2011, 02:46 PM #19
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
Boss302 is on the button. The condensor pressure bypass check valve was fitted to improve heating/defrost and three way valve response time, during the introduction of higher pressure refrigerants. You don't close the check valve to test the three way valve, you close it because otherwise you can't test the three way valve.
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17-08-2011, 02:58 PM #20
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
Well that makes good sense- you still have to close it
The op asked about the check valves then last time asked again from a different angle (I only speak plain english which that is not), reading the post it appears he wants another answer, he got one, which explains how to test 3way valve
I worked for TK for 3 years & succesfully faulted valves with this procedure, replaced the kits & then it works/seals
I also worked for Carrier (united technologies) & when they brought out the Vector that was the end of the engineer...all they do now is change oil/filters & sensors, no technical abillity needed no more as a vector will compensate so well it will pull chilled with half a charge of refigerant and tell you whats wrong with it!If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !
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18-08-2011, 03:28 AM #21
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
Straight from the book
Condenser Pressure Bypass Check Valve: A valve
located in the 3-way valve end cap. It permits condenser
pressure to flow to the discharge line when the 3-way valve
first shifts to heat. It improves the 3-way valve response
time when the pilot solenoid closes.
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18-08-2011, 04:14 AM #22
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
Is that so...well i hope your T/K buddies don't read that.. i was sent a Vector form a customer that T/K couldn't fix...................i won't tell you what the fault was........but it certainly didn't tell you what it was !!!!!!! that could be one for quote of the yearLast edited by moggy66; 18-08-2011 at 04:21 AM.
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18-08-2011, 04:37 AM #23
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
Last edited by chillerman2006; 18-08-2011 at 11:06 AM.
If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !
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18-08-2011, 04:49 AM #24
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18-08-2011, 05:11 AM #25
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
always look on the bright side of life, di de, di de di de di de
PS. Marshall ThermoKing, kick a** here, they fix anything!!!
Vectors for breakfast
Last edited by chillerman2006; 18-08-2011 at 11:24 AM.
If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !
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18-08-2011, 11:04 AM #26
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
boss, robert, butcher & moggy
dont take things so seriously
let your hair down, chill out & just have a laugh
(remember human nature & I'm knocking on now)
come join in & let us here it from the other side of the fence
http://www.refrigeration-engineer.co...at-Us-This-Way
If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !
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18-08-2011, 11:09 AM #27
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18-08-2011, 09:10 PM #28
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
Buddy, I'm from Canada and proud of it. I know my stuff and can fix, yes I said fix, anything properly too. I take offence to what your saying here especialy considdering you are contradicting yourself constantly. Read this post from the start. You should be commended for trying to help. That said, once you were corrected, you started to spew garbage like a child.
Case in point, you say "I also worked for Carrier (united technologies) & when they brought out the Vector that was the end of the engineer...all they do now is change oil/filters & sensors, no technical abillity needed no more as a vector will compensate so well it will pull chilled with half a charge of refigerant and tell you whats wrong with it!"
Then you say " PS. Marshall ThermoKing, kick a** here, they fix anything!!!
Vectors for breakfast
"
What do you mean? They are good at dumping oil? Have you ever even worked on a Vector?
Anyways, I'm not here to insult.
I would just like to thank you for giving an effort but encourage you to open your mind and accept that others may know more than you. If your not carefull you may learn something from these guys. They are a great bunch. I can vouch for that.
Cheers boys!Last edited by abbsnowman; 18-08-2011 at 09:17 PM. Reason: spelling
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18-08-2011, 09:34 PM #29
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
unless my history teacher was misstaken aswell as me
Were it not, apart from the red indians(dont know their background) everyone in america traces back to europe & everyone in europe traces back to africa ..... we are all one .....
we are all the same !!!!
Dont take things personal,
I'm just a southern panzie to the tough boys up north .... i dont cry about it
Lifes to short to give a s h- ite about silly things
have a laugh and live every day as if its your last as one day it will be
Oh! and yes I have worked on them(vector 1 & 2), and done the coarse after I finished throwing up from the too many drinks from the night before, just missed the first hour, but I caught upLast edited by chillerman2006; 19-08-2011 at 03:10 AM.
If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !
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18-08-2011, 09:59 PM #30
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
Cant handle my drink! was tea-total till you's started picking on me
Marshall's can fix anything...thats were everyone goes when their local firm cant fix it, and they get it sorted some real top engineers there & technical backup they have is second to none
I do believe the vector has resulted in lost jobs due to self diagnostics & much quicker to do maintenance just oil/filters & usual checks, no belts/pulleys, which has reduced time it takes. Plus has made them super reliable. Once the teething poblems were sorted, chargers & generators, still have sensor problems so I hear.
Spew like a child - I dont want to insult either
If I missed a bit let me know & I'll be back tomorrow as I have to go fishing to sort out next weeks nosh, got one for this weekend, and now we are such close friends I know I can trust you not too tell my mrsLast edited by chillerman2006; 19-08-2011 at 03:15 AM.
If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !
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18-08-2011, 10:06 PM #31
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
chillerman -she needs a new thrust bearing and an oil change,just seen her leaving the fire station with ur misses and they were hobbling like john wayne!haha
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18-08-2011, 10:13 PM #32
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
Damn!! I bet mr bartlett was there as well, grinning like a cheshire cat (apologies cat lovers & cheshire - got enough complaints here dont need no more)
#14 & #17 of
http://www.refrigeration-engineer.co...algae-and-moss
See I can take it !
ps .. core would do that celine dion, dont know any othersLast edited by chillerman2006; 18-08-2011 at 10:44 PM.
If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !
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18-08-2011, 11:19 PM #33
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
Gents
you might find this post explains it all
http://www.refrigeration-engineer.co...178#post237178
or this one
http://www.refrigeration-engineer.co...170#post237170
You wont feel as touchy & might even learn somethingIf the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !
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18-08-2011, 11:43 PM #34
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
wasnt celine dion born COLIN DION ???
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18-08-2011, 11:47 PM #35
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19-08-2011, 12:14 AM #36
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
as long as it shaves its bum,port and storm spring to mind!
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19-08-2011, 01:12 AM #37
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
I never said that isn't how you check the 3 way valve. I was just trying to help the original poster. I could see him getting easily confused about the check valve. Seemed to me that he was thinking the check valve/service valve was just there to check the 3 way valve.
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19-08-2011, 01:55 AM #38
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19-08-2011, 03:53 PM #39
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
The only thing I have learned in two days is how quick my ribs & cheeks can compress !
I smell troll.
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19-08-2011, 05:37 PM #40
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20-08-2011, 05:51 AM #41
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
oh, fire!fire!!!!!!!fire!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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20-08-2011, 05:52 AM #42
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
anyway, thanks everyone for joining this stuff...........just for very technical problem, no personal ones! thanks!!
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20-08-2011, 06:02 AM #43
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
after i think it over again, that cbcv works this way: let's say it is running at cool mode now, when heating is called, pilot solenoid is energized, the pressure at spring side is released, so the condenser pressure can push the piston against the spring pressure, so that the 3-way shifts to heat mode;
at this moment, if there is no cbcv to release the pressure to discharge vibe, which means that high condenser pressure always stays in the condenser to be against the piston, whenever cooling is called, solenoid is closed, the pressure at spring side has to be built up for a while until two pressures (spring's & discharge's) are big enough to push the 3-way piston to evap's side.
If cbcv exists, it release condenser's pressure to discharge vibe in heat mode, which lowers condenser pressure so much, so that two pressure (spring's & discharge's) can easily overcome condenser pressure, which improves the respond time in heat-to-cool mode.
I think I am right this time!!!!!
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20-08-2011, 07:06 AM #44
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
Hi,
I think reeferj got it right. Also if we have truck unit with TherMax, cpbv is useless as thermax solenoid bleeds pressure from condenser.
-nova-
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02-09-2011, 04:01 AM #45
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
Sounds like you got it now Reeferj
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08-09-2011, 01:02 AM #46
Re: TK -3 way valve theory???
Off topic - needed removing
Last edited by chillerman2006; 08-09-2011 at 03:56 PM.
If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !