The Trouble with the Industry !!

[chillerman2006]

When the new F-gas certs were first announced I along with many others I know were rubbing our hands together and wrongly thinking - right that’s it - all the cowboys gone - mass shortage of engineers = massive wage rises

My delusion of an expected 20-30% wage increase over the next year or so was blown straight out the water as soon as I took my test and now totally confirmed by your posts here

I took the J11 as the test centre is just a short drive from my home and I am still now months later totally shocked at what I found

A trainer who did not understand principles of refrigeration and a mixed class of general building trades all of which needless to say passed with flying colours

It was a two day refresher with an additional half day for the theory/practical

Day one went well - rules, regs & protocols

Day two the trainer was exposed

He gave us some mock questions one of which was

If a system running on R134a has a discharge pressure of 12bar.g. and a liquid line temp of 52 degrees C what is the subcooling?

When it came to going through the questions the trainer pointed at me for this answer and I explained there was no subcooling and somehow his imaginary system had managed to superheat the refrigerant in the condenser.

He replied "wrong there is 3 degrees of subcooling" I tried to explain but he insisted he was right

I looked round at the others waiting for support and they all just looked blank and said nothing, so I just shook my head and let it go

The next day, test time it gets worse

This is the J11 so the trainer marks your paper - you must get 100% to pass - no online test

Taking my readings on the rig I found (R134a) there was a suction pressure of 1bar.g and temp was 17.2 degrees C - quickly working it out 1bar.g = minus 10 so I have a superheat of 27.2 degrees C, filled in my paper told him I was finished and asked if I could leave

He then pulled me to one side and said you want to change that one its 7.2 not 27.2 you have to just minus one from the other

We argued back and forth who was right until the point I had enough and told him he is talking out his backside

He then replied "you either put 7.2 or I am going to fail you"

Having no choice I put 7.2 and received a pass

This is just a joke £550 to be forced to write incorrect answers to pass a test which he nursed and basically guaranteed a pass to all the builders and now you guys have clearly shown me the ticket is just a political stunt to say “ hay we’re saving the planet”

To say I am not impressed is an understatement

[tmm]

Comments surrounding the quality of training provisions aside have we all considered any of the following:
1) When CORGI was catapaulted in front of the public it was supported with a massive advertising campaign across all forms of media which highlighted the need for compliance. F-Gas has not been supported in a similar manner and relies, as far as I can see, upon the good will of the sector to self promote, on a un-paid basis, the requirement.
2) If the objective is to reduce CO2 why have we not enforced EPC/DEC/SAP's or Air Conditioning Inspections.
3) If the objective is to reduce refrigerant leakage why do we still have flares - I could go on!!
4) Whilst training obviously benefits both the larger community and the sector as a whole we retain the oldest housing stock in Europe, with all of the associate problems which this causes, and yet the focus of attention remains on this sector to reduce emissions?
5) Given that training improves the sector why do I still note that systems containing less refrigerant are exempt from F-Gas? The system capacity confirms the frequency of service visits - unless the criteria has changed since I completed 2078. We all have a responsibility under the Montreal Protocol to reduce leakage and although the Act was revised the opening paragraph of the revised legislation refers to this requirement.
6) The government has defined refrigerant and oil as hazardous waste so how is it possible for pre-charged units to be sold to associate trades - since by definition they will not have received the training to advise their client correctly. For example do you believe that DEFRA will accept that a unit which has remained unserviced for a period of years and than suffers a leak complies with the intent of the act and moreover if the customer has not been informed of their obligations under the act how could they avoid possible actions being brought by DEFRA?
7) I recently received notice from REFCOM that my membership had expired and that it should be upgraded to suit current legislation. The body of the letter continues that my inclusion on the 2078 data base will be used by the issuing authorities to confirm compliance with the new requirements rather than address those who have yet to obtain any training?

So if anybody can convince me that the new requirements are anything other than demonstrating compliance to Europe I welcome the confirmation.

tmm

[chillerman2006]

5) Given that training improves the sector

The likes of Ellis training centre - Yes agreed - but the trainer i had is now doing 2 week new starter courses, getting total novices through a ticket, teaching them a load of bull

If you are trained incorrectly on superheat/subcooling what use is that to our industry ?

[r.bartlett]

The likes of Ellis training centre - Yes agreed - but the trainer i had is now doing 2 week new starter courses, getting total novices through a ticket, teaching them a load of bull

If you are trained incorrectly on superheat/subcooling what use is that to our industry ?

We all know there are rogue trainers out there,we have covered this many times.

It would be a good idea to have a 5 yearly retest which will allow the regulators to slowly catch up on them and drive them out of business. However I hope you report this training company to DEFRA as unless we take action there is little point comong here moaning about poor standards.

[chillerman2006]

However I hope you report this training company to DEFRA as unless we take action there is little point comong here moaning about poor standards.

I know deep down your 100% right here and shall give it some serious consideration over the next couple of days

[taz24]

.

It is not DEFRA that need to know it is City & Guilds or CITB. CITB in this case.

If the course was run correctly you should have had a complaints procedure explained to you.

If he had failed you and if his calculations were as you say then that would be evidence and
the complaints procedure would highlight it.

If you felt you were not given a fair hearing then, you can take it up with the governing body
and they will assess the evidence and it will come to light.

If the evidence has gone it is now your word against his.

He will be told to check his information and as a training agency they will be told to improve standards
by carrying out internal quality audits. These will show up the problem if the training company are
realy bothered about standards and not just proffit.

We all make mistakes and we hopfuly learn from them but if a company is giving the qualification
away they are insulting your knowledge and hard work and are doing nobody any favours.

taz.

.

[chillerman2006]

.


if a company is giving the qualification
away they are insulting your knowledge and hard work and are doing nobody any favours.

taz.

.

Exactly

If you take the citb/cskills or c&g route they have no one to answer to apart from there own investigating colleagues - easily brushed under the carpet

Where as when you take the F-Gas Support & Defra route, they both give you a reference number, do the complaining on your behalf and then ensure it is fully investigated and rectified

Defra's area of authority includes environmental laws are adhered to including false qualification which can have an environmental impact

in this case carbon footprint increase

If we all set up our systems with 27 degress of superheat instead of 7, unlike us they dont really care about the compressors life but they do about the excessive use of electricity

You and I , don't worry training bodies as we have no clout, Defra do

[JohnFS]

Some say that politicians etc are bad yes often that's true, but without rules how does society operate? Someone has to set the rules. Or is it suggested it's everyman for him self (see Somalia, pirates, terrorists etc)?
Then there are those that deny global warming, well the vast majority of world scientific community can't be wrong! But then there are some who see conspiracy every where and even when confronted with evidence disproving their theories they invent more rubbish!
With regard to re-training, would you like a surgeon to operate on you who last had up to date training say in 1970 when they qualified? Or would you prefer a surgeon who used up to date practice & technology as so saving you're life!
All trade industries need to be governed by a registration system same as doctors and therefore to practice unregistered would be a criminal offence. This in the long run makes life easier for all. The customer would be confident that he will pay only once for a job. Not hire a cowboy who screws the job, then the customer pays twice to get a qualified person to correct the bad job! This would raise the pay for all after all if the customer knows he will only pay once he will be prepared to pay a reasonable price. Otherwise the qualified are under cut by the cowboys then the qualified are knocked down on price because the customer has run out of money!