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  1. #1
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    The Trouble with the Industry !!



    Having recently covered the new f gas course I was amazed at just how many companys send there engineers on the course from all different backgrounds , but with no refrigeration training what so ever. Thank fully the course I was on , people were told they could not complete the practical due to incompetence. ( how many training centres would do this i wonder ?? )
    Anyway It did make it quite clear how little regard other trades have for refrigeration and was quite nice to see people struggling on the test rig. I may add there were people who were in the trade who could not set up oxy/acetyline, had no knowledge of OFN. etc etc.
    The most hoffific thing for me was on returning to our office the stores was having a clear out. We uncovered various quantities of refrigerant in many bottles . Approx 60 kilo of r22 and mixes,etc.
    I explanied to the firm what action needed to happen and the cost for reclaiming and destroying.
    the awnser i got was " can you just let it go, thats what the last engineer used to do. what harm can it do? "
    this came from a company director. Again not a fridge engineer, but they have been servicing and installing for the past 20 years . I have recently joined the company , I feel it puts me in a moral dilema working for people with no regard for the planet let alone the trade. This unfortunatly has been similar throughout my career . In nearly all my previous jobs the managment have been non refrigeration engineers, or have a lack of experience on the tools. Is it not about time there was mandatory training for all levels including managment and directors!!



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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    So... people are ignoring the laws and your solution is to pass more laws?

    The environmental laws are ignored because they are nothing more than a money grab. They point at the environment with one hand and pick your pocket with the other hand.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    hi, my point was to make people involved in the industry qualified , so as to improve our status. It is no point making it illegal to do this and that if managment dont understand the trade or current regualtions. AND YES our planet is important and the ban of cfc s is a good thing . you have to use the law to control this. The same as in this country , you can not touch natural gas , for safety reasons unless qualified and registered. this also is a criminal act

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    I hate to admit it but gary is spot on, the restrictions are in place to make money, if they really cared about industry practice they would police it better. i know loads of company's and "engineers" who regularly flout the law where gas regs is concerned, oh the story's i could tell. but who would listen.
    Kev

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kev The Tool View Post
    I hate to admit it but Gary is spot on, the restrictions are in place to make money, if they really cared about industry practice they would police it better. i know loads of company's and "engineers" who regularly flout the law where gas regs is concerned, oh the story's i could tell. but who would listen.
    Kev

    No you are both wrong. It is the duty of every citizen to uphold and maintain the laws and to assist the police in carrying out their duty.

    If you know that the law is being flouted then as a citizen it is your dutyto report those who don't. Just sitting and moaning that the law isn't being policed properly doesn't help anyone apart from those who flout the law.How do they know what you know unless you tell them??????

    . F-Gas has a reporting telephone number. Bloody well use it. If you complywhy allow those who don't?


    Report them:

    F-Gas Support Helpline

    0161 874 3663 (9-5 Mon-Fri)
    F-Gas Support Helpdesk

    fgas-support@enviros.com
    Make sure you get a written confirmation that they have received the information and report them to the police if they do not act.




    I absolutely intend to inform every Tom **** and Harry customer that we comply and they should not use those that don't. I gain by informing customers of their duty to uphold the law (not that all will of course) they gain by being informed about a law they may not know about and those that don't comply suffer by their work pool getting smaller. Isn't that what we're all striving for, a better industry for all??


    Don't complain if you let them get away with it by saying it's not my job toreport breaches. It is and the fact that no one does is the exact reason this legislation was brought in in the first place. We complain about the Nanny state but refuse to self police. If our industry took itself and it's workforce seriously it would have enforced this years ago. But they didn't and everyoneturns a blind eye, Then complain that the government acted instead. Square that circle and you see we need protecting from ourselves.

    There was a piece on R5 about a community self policing it's estate as the tenants were given the power to evict those who disobeyed the rules (which were far more restrictive than the Councils own regulations btw) The result was a massive reduction in crime as tenants suddenly because team players beholding to their fellow tenants.. Crime and vandalism went down hugely as a result and the estate became a desirable placeto live. IE they didn't need the police to tell them what to do: they did itthemselves.

    This is what we need to do. Self police and the trade will bloom to be adesirable trade to be in. Turn a blind eye and we have exactly what we havenow.. It's your choice, my choice and everyone out there's choice. Just don't moan if you sit stum.

    Stand up for us all and together we can be proud. Till that happens we remain divided and derided.

    Make those who don't comply shape up or ship out or you are responsible forholding us all back

    And yes I will report those who are in breach and do so knowing it will make the industry a better place for us all

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Didn't the Nazis use that strategy?

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    Didn't the Nazis use that strategy?
    A better analogy would have been the East German Stasi but it's a very weak comment and doesn't really work. Fly tipping is hardly the crime of the century but it was made illegal. Why you no doubt ask? well to protect the country from small minded people who suggest "It's only a couple of ton and I have to pay to get rid of it"

    Well we all suffer from these small minded idiots who can't see the greater good and it's us that have to pay to get it cleared up. Everyone moans that they have to pay to dump but no one shops those who don't. The legit trader is penalized by the fly tipper, the customer is paying the fly tipper to dispose of their rubbish properly and the tax payer picks up the tab..You may see it as a victory for the fly tipper getting one over the system. I see it as someone getting paid to do a job, not doing what he was paid for and then asking us to pay for it ....I need him/you like a hole in the head.

    Back on track:

    I am surprised by someone who sells training books seems to be against training engineers to a higher standard. The industry has ignored the warnings for 50 years about cleaning up it's act so it's hardly a surprise the government steps in and enforces regulation.

    And that is all it is. Regulation to raise standards whilst protecting the consumer from the unscrupulous and helping to protect the environment. There are no losers here past the small minded and untrained.

    Time you reevaluated your belief system about just caring about yourself and the cowboy's littering our trade.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Don't be to hash on each other Guys.
    This will all take time and yes some of the regs are viewed with suspicion or contempt.
    When you complete the F gas training You as an individual are made responsible.
    That is a very big statement Dependant upon how it is viewed.
    The changes are slow but they are happening.
    As more of us comply and adopt fewer will be accepted for bending the rules.
    Even the rules are being adjusted as we go along.

    More and more companies who have to pay out to comply are becoming less and less tolerant of those that don't.

    My own answer when requested to do anything that I deem to not follow the guidelines nowadays, is to say sorry "F Gas" does not allow me to do that. If you wish to do so then that is your choice.

    Grizzly
    Last edited by Grizzly; 03-07-2011 at 09:00 AM.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    my point again - Mandatory training for any one involved in the industry, at all levels !!!
    end off

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    With gary ,money racket ,get all these tickets then have to go back every so many years and renew them .If you get a degree from university do you have to go back and renew it?.Its all just another form of taxation

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    The Earth is getting warmer... therefore you must give me your money and obey my commands.

    The first part of that sentence may or may not be true. The second part of that sentence is total BS. An excuse to rob you and dictate your behavior. Seems the world is cram packed full of thieves and dictators... and their accomplices.
    Last edited by Gary; 03-07-2011 at 04:54 PM.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Gary,

    And your solution to the issue is?

    Stephen.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    were all responsible for ensuring good practices on site and back in the yard,maybe a service manager or other office muppet should do the 2079 to ensure good practises and make sure there engineers are all preaching from the same page. also a few fines will soon shape up the industry. wholesalers should only supply refrigerant to qualified f gas engineers,each condenser should have the f gas history to hand,not hidden away in a file,engineers should prove that leaks are repaiared and submit photo's of repair. also all aircon/fridge systems inc under 3kg should be serviced and included in the f gas regs to ensure the lil corner shop with the rough a**e installs are not getting topped up every 3mths for a quick foreigner.-rant over thanks

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    I do not an an issue in making better use of the earths resources (for what ever reason you believe in) I do believe that the majority of the hype is a money making scam. Self regulation does not seem to work, so I agree that some form is required. My argument is that just about anybody can get a "F"gas or similar certification, I almost get the impression you do the couple day course, and as long as you are there you pass. How many fail? In the costumers eyes (who no nothing in many caases) you must be a qualified/competent refrig/ac engineer with "F" gas. This just makes a mockery of the trade. No wonder we no longer have the respect that we once had. Maybe it is the price/supply of refrigerant which will determine, the quality of workmanship, not direct regulation. Tax at source, like petrol, smokes, booze and use the funds for apprentiship training (thats a wish)

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Goober View Post
    Gary,

    And your solution to the issue is?

    Stephen.
    If we assume that there really is an issue, what makes you think there is a solution? What if there is no solution? I am told that in 200 years the state of Florida will be under water. Are you listening, Florida residents? Better start packing. You have a mere 200 years to move out.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by joe-ice View Post
    With gary ,money racket ,get all these tickets then have to go back every so many years and renew them .If you get a degree from university do you have to go back and renew it?.Its all just another form of taxation
    OK I'll bite, firstly there is a big difference between an academic degree and a trade registration. I am surprised you need telling this??


    Secondly we all know this hasn't been a resounding success with various rogue trainers driving round with a rig hitched up and a guaranteed pass come what may. These will thin out as this massive lump travels down the snake and training slows over the next few years. Then those who come up for a re-test (assuming that is what happens) in a few years time will suddenly find it hard to get one of these rogue trainers as they would have come and gone. Then they have to actually pass the exam rather than be told the answers. So they will have to up their game somewhat


    Thirdly exactly what tax is 2079 actually raising ?

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    I was on a job the other day doing some electrical work, and there was two split systems in boxes , looking like they needed to be installed some where. I asked the owner " do you need these installing, we can provide a price for installl etc. " they replied " no thanks our builder is going to do it . .. they were Lg by the way and not b and q units . that is whats wrong with the industry, no respect for our trade or the skills to do it. If that was a combi boiler on site, no one would of offered to install unless corgi or gas safe registered, for fear of comebacks.
    ( if there was a death two years later they would still look to see who installed it)
    I could also install gas appliances , but i would not do it in a customers house.its just to risky, I dont want to go to prison. Its taken a generation for the refrigeration industry to get to this , so action is a good thing, to boost our incomes and status.most of all our incomes....!!

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    thanks r bartlett , i will bear in mind what you say, trouble is we all need a job right now, just as long as im above the law , sod the comapany

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    tell him youl get rid of the r22 ( current price is around reclaimed r22 for around 19 pound a kg )

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by damaircon View Post
    I was on a job the other day doing some electrical work, and there was two split systems in boxes , looking like they needed to be installed some where. I asked the owner " do you need these installing, we can provide a price for installl etc. " they replied " no thanks our builder is going to do it . .. they were Lg by the way and not b and q units . that is whats wrong with the industry, no respect for our trade or the skills to do it. If that was a combi boiler on site, no one would of offered to install unless corgi or gas safe registered, for fear of comebacks...
    In AREA, (Air Conditioning and Refrigeration European Association), (http://www.area-eur.be/) as an example, they are trying to get the splits systems sold without refrigerant inside. This way, they could only be handled by qualified installers who have passed their exams. In other words, it would keep builders, plumbers, or carpenters away from the AC installs.

    New regulations are not a matter of taxation, but a way to get a more professional market/industry, with a loyal competence among the actors, more environmentally responsible trade.


    Quote Originally Posted by thebigcheese View Post
    tell him youl get rid of the r22 ( current price is around reclaimed r22 for around 19 pound a kg )
    Why don't you recycle what there is in the bank? In Ireland there should be a few thousands tons of R22 still in the installs which are about to be retrofitted.

    Regards,

    Nando.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fri3Oil System View Post
    In AREA, (Air Conditioning and Refrigeration European Association), (http://www.area-eur.be/) as an example, they are trying to get the splits systems sold without refrigerant inside. This way, they could only be handled by qualified installers who have passed their exams. In other words, it would keep builders, plumbers, or carpenters away from the AC installs.
    Maybe they can get refrigerators sold without refrigerant, too. Then we could stick it to everyone. Just think how professional that would make us all look. And we can pretend we are saving the planet.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Hi Gary,

    that would mean that the only guys who could install those units, would be qualified workers, and definitely, that's a way to create a more professional and environmentally conscious trade. Obviously, my point of view (and many others as far as I know). But this is how we see it in Europe, where there is a bigger concern about Environment... or as you'd say, a bigger will to tax installers

    Regards,

    Nando.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    ok maybe i picked a bad example ,when you pass your driving test do you suddenly forget how to drive 3 years later and so have to resit your test.i have no problem with training to better protect the environment and improve skills,im all for it .i dislike when it is turned into a gravy train with mandatory retesting.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    I understand the contractor's dilemma. You have been robbed by the government and in order to survive, you need to pass this along to your customers. There are those who manage to avoid being robbed, thus circumventing the plan... and you would like to believe they are the bad guys, so you buy into all of the 'saving the planet' crap.

    I have no problem at all with believing politicians are the bad guys in all of this. They are the worst of the worst, scum of the earth, bottom feeding, blood sucking thieves and dictators.
    Last edited by Gary; 05-07-2011 at 03:08 PM.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    The Earth is getting warmer... therefore you must give me your money and obey my commands.

    The first part of that sentence may or may not be true. The second part of that sentence is total BS. An excuse to rob you and dictate your behavior. Seems the world is cram packed full of thieves and dictators... and their accomplices.
    There is no exception to your comment in this part of the world either. Carbon tax is set to be introduced here on everything that produces CO2!! Getting back on the subject now, think of how many years vehicles have been on the roads, and with traffic cops and cameras everywhere, how many drivers continue to bend the rules? I think refrigeration rules and regulations will continue to face an uphill battle for some time yet.. Mike.
    To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    carbon tax, is just that : a tax grab, globle warming is scare mongering. The commodities trading market just love it.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    Didn't the Nazis use that strategy?
    Gary, do you listen to Glen Beck a lot

    We have had this discussion before and I am sorry but we humans, technologically advanced as we are, have not advanced in humility or in how we view our place in this world. Many of us continue to believe we have no influence on the planet, or are too small minded to see the repercussions of our actions outside our own free will and pocket book.

    When 99% of all climate scientists say there is a problem, there is a problem. Period. They may disagree on the extent of it or how to fix it (assuming you believe we should care) and the only scientists who don't agree are paid by people like the Koch brothers (they own oil and coal plants around the US) who bankroll the Teaparty. It is in their financial interest that nothing be done about.

    We simply have come to a time in our history when our actions have a visible effect on the planet. We put the government in place, we ask for proper regulations and it is up to us to see that they are correct and that they work for MOST people.

    If you leave it to the corporations (who we don't elect) and not our governments (who we do elect), nothing will be done because it is not in the interest of a corporation to do anything that will reduce the next quarters profits. This is the difference between the "social contract" between European corporations and American ones. European corporations know they work within a community and American ones believe they are separate from it. I generalize but it is actually pretty true. (if you stick 500 million americans in an area the size of Texas, there would be a war. Europe exists and works because the lessons of the WW2 created the current system......and the longest period of peace in history)

    Back to the certifications, when I got my gas ticket in 93, there was 100,000 tickets floating around Ontario (population 12 million). Some people said they did it as a hobby. The govt wanted to get the number down to 25,000 so the the courses went from a two day event to a 3 month event and a lot more money. Is this wrong? It serves a good purpose.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    .

    I think it is common knowledge I work as a trainer and assessor within the fridge industry.

    I never hide that fact and I alway try to keep a ballenced opinion and attitude.

    I'm not totaly convinced about what causes Climate Change.

    Maybe the world is going through a cycle and it is totaly natural, maybe it is mankind
    causeing the problems. If I'm honest I think it is a combination of both factors (natural and human),
    but whatever the causes it will not affect most of us here on this forum or in our lifetimes.

    If it is happening then it will be our kids, kids (grandchildren) that will have to deal with it.

    So do we say "sod you I have had a good life rapeing the world and now I'm off somewhere
    better" You can deal with the crap I leave behind, or do we say "maybe I'm at fault here and
    maybe I can do somthing about it".

    Us doing somthing about it costs us money, not lives, just money. If we do sod all and we are
    to blame, well what then??? If we do sod all and we are not to blame???

    I don't think there is one answer and there is deffinately not one solution, but doing nothing
    will not help! Doing somthing costs us money!

    Gary we have had discussions like this in the past and we agreed to disagree for the most part
    and although I respect your view I think it is tainted by a bigger mistrust of anyone in authority.

    Nobody in authority can prove to you anything other than what you know and I think that has
    more to do with other things not only climate change.

    I'm not nieve enough to know that big bussness and politics are a key player in the descisions
    being made and I know that all descissions made are not for the best of reasons, but and there
    is always a but.

    BUT if we are a liitle bit responsible for the way the world is and we can affect it by a little, doing
    the right thing, then that only costs us money. In a hundred years it will cost lives.

    Think about the practicalities of 1 billion people being forced to moved around the world because
    their part of the world is flooded or too arid to support life. Where will they live????

    Most people in Westernised countries with stable political governments will not be affected.
    It is the poorest and most unstable countries that will be affected the most.

    And I repeat at the moment it is only costing money....

    Not an answer most agree with and I have no answers that will save the planet, but if I know of ilegal
    practices I will express my dissatisfaction to those concerned and ultimately the opption to report is there.

    If mandatory qulifications brings the standard of my trade up that can only be for the good.
    I have been in my trade for more than 30 years and I have seen so many changes both good and bad,
    but the one overiding factor that realy scares me is then down skilling of the industry and the lack
    of ability in some so called proffesionals.

    taz

    .

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    here, here taz. I've seen a lot of the data and I see the changes as being far faster than anything nature has done on its own time so I do believe we are mostly to blame. It has nothing to do with government as government only does what the people who push it, want. In the US, most of those "people" are corporations. If we can make good regulations that mitigate the problem, do it.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Way back when this all started, the original plan was to phase out the suspect refrigerants at the manufacturing level... period. That was the entire plan, a reasonable response, most effective, least intrusive and least expensive, eliminating nearly all of the problem. It enjoyed near unanimous support throughout the refrigeration industry (including myself).

    What followed, all of the regulation, taxation and micromanagement of the entire industry was well beyond the point of diminishing returns, accomplishing little or nothing... other than enriching the government and stifling competition. It's all a big rip-off and nothing else.

    Is the industry being de-skilled? You bet. This is going to continue and it is going to get much worse. Eventually the systems will be truly self-diagnostic and the end user will be able to repair/replace them... without calling in a contractor. Window and/or through the wall units will be made more attractive, less noisy and much more efficient. Only the very rich will have split systems... and few contractors will be needed to service them.

    Why will this happen? Because all of the regulations, licenses and government micromanagement are adding enormously to the cost of hiring a contractor. We will be priced right out of the market.

    In the meantime, there will be those who find ways to avoid being robbed. As you may have noticed, unjust laws are difficult, if not impossible, to enforce.
    Last edited by Gary; 06-07-2011 at 06:59 PM.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by taz24 View Post
    If it is happening then it will be our kids, kids (grandchildren) that will have to deal with it.
    What we are going to leave our children and grandchildren is a world where they are robbed mercilessly and their every waking moment is dictated by government edict. A world in which they are told how they must walk, talk, look, act and think. A world in which they are enslaved by their government... all for the "greater good".
    Last edited by Gary; 06-07-2011 at 07:16 PM.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post


    Window and/or through the wall units will be made more attractive, less noisy and much more efficient. Only the very rich will have split systems
    Thank god my job is safe as I have never touched either

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Quality View Post
    Thank god my job is safe as I have never touched either
    I think you are missing the point. A high quality self-contained A/C unit, reasonably priced and easy to install/repair/replace could put half the contractors in our industry out of work. As contractor prices rise, window units look better and better. They are sold everywhere and any Tom, **** or Harry can install them. If they become popular, your job is not safe.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    What we are going to leave our children and grandchildren is a world where they are robbed mercilessly and their every waking moment is dictated by government edict. A world in which they are told how they must walk, talk, look, act and think. A world in which they are enslaved by their government... all for the "greater good".
    Do you want to tell me what would happen if we had no government? First thing would be every man for himself...and when enough people have been killed by the lawlessness a group of people will stand up and say we need to organize and elect a leader and.......on you go. But this is not 2-3 hundred years ago. The corporations are in control and they will step in BECAUSE THEY CAN and they already have the resources. Corporations are not altruistic, its not what they were invented for.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeHolm View Post
    Do you want to tell me what would happen if we had no government? First thing would be every man for himself...and when enough people have been killed by the lawlessness a group of people will stand up and say we need to organize and elect a leader and.......on you go. But this is not 2-3 hundred years ago. The corporations are in control and they will step in BECAUSE THEY CAN and they already have the resources. Corporations are not altruistic, its not what they were invented for.
    What the angle of yours on AC units ?
    I have never touched one
    Surely. You know there is a hell of a lot more to the fridge trade than a bit of air conditioning

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeHolm View Post
    Do you want to tell me what would happen if we had no government? First thing would be every man for himself...and when enough people have been killed by the lawlessness a group of people will stand up and say we need to organize and elect a leader and.......on you go. But this is not 2-3 hundred years ago. The corporations are in control and they will step in BECAUSE THEY CAN and they already have the resources. Corporations are not altruistic, its not what they were invented for.
    Are those the only two choices? All consuming totalitarian government or no government at all? I don't think so.
    Last edited by Gary; 06-07-2011 at 10:28 PM.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    We (Americans for sure, and many other people as well) look at your Constitution as a good thing (by the people, for the people etc and the British one is good too) but the constitution never anticipated people so powerful and untouchable as the multi-billionare barons that hide behind a corporate name, the ruling class. Gary, who tells the government what to do?.................For small things the people do, sometimes.....but behind the scenes? It is not you and me.

    Why do you blame government when their strings are being pulled by Mr. Big? Last I heard the candidate with the most bucks wins the race and you can't get in to see your senator but the head of Mr.Big Corp can. Why not blame them for the problems. I never hear a word about that. You think less regulation is better but I say GOOD regulation is necessary and no one should get a free ride.

    On the subject of small AC units, when I was doing my electronics 30 years ago, we diagnosed down to component level, now it is down to board level only and that has, in some things, progressed to tossing the thing out and getting a new one. Life will progress and if we are still around in 20 years, who knows what we will see so I'm not worried about that.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Quality View Post
    What the angle of yours on AC units ?
    I have never touched one
    Surely. You know there is a hell of a lot more to the fridge trade than a bit of air conditioning
    I actually don't believe in AC in general in houses, it is not one of mans basic needs, a desire defo, but not a need. When i look at all the city smog here in Toronto, much from coal power plants I am very glad that I don't contribute to by installing AC units. I'm into heat pumps partly because most of our power is from Nucs and Niagara Falls and thanks to a program that costs about a doughnut a year for everyone on their bill we have a really good feed in tariff for solar electricity.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeHolm View Post
    Why do you blame government when their strings are being pulled by Mr. Big? Last I heard the candidate with the most bucks wins the race and you can't get in to see your senator but the head of Mr.Big Corp can. Why not blame them for the problems. I never hear a word about that. You think less regulation is better but I say GOOD regulation is necessary and no one should get a free ride.

    There are regulations that protect consumers from businesses... and then there are regulations that protect businesses from competition. The former are good regulations. The latter are bad regulations. They are the means by which Mr. Big got to be Mr. Big, because they stop all of the Mr. Littles from competing with him.

    There are two ways to win a foot race. You can outrun the other guy or you can pay off the low life politicians to trip the other guy. The big corporations are running things because the politicians allow it. Politicians are the lowest form of life, the dregs of humanity.
    Last edited by Gary; 06-07-2011 at 11:58 PM.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    The dregs of humanity are the ones who can be bought, you are right about that. Every man has his price, with very few exceptions so the rules should foresee this and there should be caps on election financing (which there are in Canada and Britain, here there are no donations allowed from Unions or Business) and individuals must declare it.

    But for every transaction there has to be a buyer and a seller and you must tackle both of them politicians AND business. The basic system is pretty good but putting in judges that reverse what safeguards we have screws it up. Look at the changes made by Bush, senior and junior and by Reagan. They took away most legislation that puts the breaks on corruption. It is 10 times more corrupt than it was 30 years ago.

    Greed is a big driving force and removing good laws will only be done if Mr. Big pushes for it.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    People will vote for the candidate who... a)promises to make somebody else pay for their favorite programs and/or... b)promises to control the behavior of others. IOW, they get elected BECAUSE they are thieves and dictators. Then the voters are shocked if/when they realize it is they who are getting screwed. That's what happens when you dance with the devil.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    I must presume that you do not vote then Gary ?

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Quality View Post
    I must presume that you do not vote then Gary ?
    Then you presume incorrectly. Generally, I vote for people who have little chance of getting elected, but that's not what matters.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    It is quite interesting that many people believe that a "conservative" candidate is looking out for their best interests, is more frugal and wants less government. That is very wrong. Under every conservative government in Canada, USA, Britain (with small exceptions) debt has gone up, earning power of the poor vs the rich has declined and there have been more limits placed on what individuals can do.

    Case in point, many governments give some money to support the arts, in some way. With our new majority conservative government, funding has been cut to organizations whose message or programs (like live theater) doesn't meet their political dogma. Under "liberal" governments this would never have happened. Equal opportunity for all.

    The same is true for battered womens shelters if the leadership says something out of line with the conservative dogma. Is this the right think to do?

    Gary, I would like how you as an individual are getting screwed by the government. I have my own ideas but I would like to hear yours.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    See what you started here Damaircon

    Going back to your original point , I can tell you that I am fully qualified as well as the men, reason being_______ if they have to do it why shouldnt I. Apart from that I was on the tools originally, albeit some time ago now although I sometimes wish I had stayed there as well. Mind you I can still do an install now and again.
    I have to tell you that I had an Electrical Wholesaler in the other day asking me about who I buy my refrigerant from!!! Why asks I , well it turns out a large refrigerant manufacturer wants to know if this Wholesaler, who has about 500 branches, would be willing to stock and sell refrigerant for them. I asked him how they were intending to regulate the sale of the refrigerant and he could not give me an adequate answer. I will be hearing the feedback from them soon but what does this tell us about regulation.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    When the new F-gas certs were first announced I along with many others I know were rubbing our hands together and wrongly thinking - right that’s it - all the cowboys gone - mass shortage of engineers = massive wage rises

    My delusion of an expected 20-30% wage increase over the next year or so was blown straight out the water as soon as I took my test and now totally confirmed by your posts here

    I took the J11 as the test centre is just a short drive from my home and I am still now months later totally shocked at what I found

    A trainer who did not understand principles of refrigeration and a mixed class of general building trades all of which needless to say passed with flying colours

    It was a two day refresher with an additional half day for the theory/practical

    Day one went well - rules, regs & protocols

    Day two the trainer was exposed

    He gave us some mock questions one of which was

    If a system running on R134a has a discharge pressure of 12bar.g. and a liquid line temp of 52 degrees C what is the subcooling?

    When it came to going through the questions the trainer pointed at me for this answer and I explained there was no subcooling and somehow his imaginary system had managed to superheat the refrigerant in the condenser.

    He replied "wrong there is 3 degrees of subcooling" I tried to explain but he insisted he was right

    I looked round at the others waiting for support and they all just looked blank and said nothing, so I just shook my head and let it go

    The next day, test time it gets worse

    This is the J11 so the trainer marks your paper - you must get 100% to pass - no online test

    Taking my readings on the rig I found (R134a) there was a suction pressure of 1bar.g and temp was 17.2 degrees C - quickly working it out 1bar.g = minus 10 so I have a superheat of 27.2 degrees C, filled in my paper told him I was finished and asked if I could leave

    He then pulled me to one side and said you want to change that one its 7.2 not 27.2 you have to just minus one from the other

    We argued back and forth who was right until the point I had enough and told him he is talking out his backside

    He then replied "you either put 7.2 or I am going to fail you"

    Having no choice I put 7.2 and received a pass

    This is just a joke £550 to be forced to write incorrect answers to pass a test which he nursed and basically guaranteed a pass to all the builders and now you guys have clearly shown me the ticket is just a political stunt to say “ hay we’re saving the planet”

    To say I am not impressed is an understatement

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Comments surrounding the quality of training provisions aside have we all considered any of the following:
    1) When CORGI was catapaulted in front of the public it was supported with a massive advertising campaign across all forms of media which highlighted the need for compliance. F-Gas has not been supported in a similar manner and relies, as far as I can see, upon the good will of the sector to self promote, on a un-paid basis, the requirement.
    2) If the objective is to reduce CO2 why have we not enforced EPC/DEC/SAP's or Air Conditioning Inspections.
    3) If the objective is to reduce refrigerant leakage why do we still have flares - I could go on!!
    4) Whilst training obviously benefits both the larger community and the sector as a whole we retain the oldest housing stock in Europe, with all of the associate problems which this causes, and yet the focus of attention remains on this sector to reduce emissions?
    5) Given that training improves the sector why do I still note that systems containing less refrigerant are exempt from F-Gas? The system capacity confirms the frequency of service visits - unless the criteria has changed since I completed 2078. We all have a responsibility under the Montreal Protocol to reduce leakage and although the Act was revised the opening paragraph of the revised legislation refers to this requirement.
    6) The government has defined refrigerant and oil as hazardous waste so how is it possible for pre-charged units to be sold to associate trades - since by definition they will not have received the training to advise their client correctly. For example do you believe that DEFRA will accept that a unit which has remained unserviced for a period of years and than suffers a leak complies with the intent of the act and moreover if the customer has not been informed of their obligations under the act how could they avoid possible actions being brought by DEFRA?
    7) I recently received notice from REFCOM that my membership had expired and that it should be upgraded to suit current legislation. The body of the letter continues that my inclusion on the 2078 data base will be used by the issuing authorities to confirm compliance with the new requirements rather than address those who have yet to obtain any training?

    So if anybody can convince me that the new requirements are anything other than demonstrating compliance to Europe I welcome the confirmation.

    tmm

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by tmm View Post
    5) Given that training improves the sector
    The likes of Ellis training centre - Yes agreed - but the trainer i had is now doing 2 week new starter courses, getting total novices through a ticket, teaching them a load of bull

    If you are trained incorrectly on superheat/subcooling what use is that to our industry ?

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by chillerman2006 View Post
    The likes of Ellis training centre - Yes agreed - but the trainer i had is now doing 2 week new starter courses, getting total novices through a ticket, teaching them a load of bull

    If you are trained incorrectly on superheat/subcooling what use is that to our industry ?
    We all know there are rogue trainers out there,we have covered this many times.

    It would be a good idea to have a 5 yearly retest which will allow the regulators to slowly catch up on them and drive them out of business. However I hope you report this training company to DEFRA as unless we take action there is little point comong here moaning about poor standards.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by r.bartlett View Post
    However I hope you report this training company to DEFRA as unless we take action there is little point comong here moaning about poor standards.
    I know deep down your 100% right here and shall give it some serious consideration over the next couple of days

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