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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Coldmetal
It is not that I don't understand how refrigeration works, it is clear that you have not bothered to think through how the Endocube works....
Coldmetal
you have not shown one ounce of technical knowledge, just spin doctors drool
I have tried to look at the cube with an open mind
specific heat !
all products have a different specific heat value and the cube can only mimic one
with this in mind how can the cube accurately replicate the heat transfer properties of all products ? ? ?
R's chillerman
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Jpsmith1cm
Well now we are talking.
What my experience is is that once you install the product you find that the refrigeration cycles are considerably reduced just as they say, but they are also extended. So when the compressor does come on it is on longer. Not really a surprise, since it isn't responding to Air anymore it takes longer to cool product. I don't think anyone would question that. (Maybe someone will surprise me).
But what happens next, and this takes longer on some equipment (typically on larger equipment -sometimes even upto 2 weeks) than on other types is that the equipment starts to run more smoothly. It is as though the compressor is actually happier running for longer but less often. If you know your equipment well you will feel it, like a well tuned car humming perfectly. Also factors such as the refrigerant is getting time to circulate properly, pressures equalise properly etc,etc. This is what I think they mean by 'efficiency improves'.
What is more interesting is that, over time, the temperature of the product drops (and what I mean by that is all the product -including newly introduced produce). This means you can then adjust your set point accordingly, nearly always by one or two points upwards. I monitor this with a data logger to make sure it's safe. The range of varience of the temperature of the food also reduces, which is where the food quality sometimes improves.
Anyway, that is what I think they are talking about when they refer to efficiency and I believe it is due to the longer cycles as well as the reduced number of cycles. Certainly if we think in terms of a car it is not at it's most efficient in the first few minutes before start up, it is also not very good for a car to keep stopping and starting and the advise with cars was always to make sure they regularly have a good run, why? because it will improve the overall efficiency of the engine!.
Now obviously the level of efficiency gain will be different for different compressors and due to a lot of other factors the overall benefit will be different in different refrigeration. But my belief is that this is the principle at work here.
I am actually not sure how one would measure this 'overall increase in efficiency' scientifically unless you look at factors such as energy consumption, food safety and food quality and possibly equipment lifespan. And all I am saying is that in my experience is, on those measures, it does a very good job, broadly in line with the claims they make. Obviously the equipment lifespan issue is much harder to measure but it makes sense to me and the anacdotal evidence is strong.
They don't, as far as I am aware, say that the Endocube is going to solve all the problems of refrigeration or that it will fix other types of faults. Because I can tell you that if you have other problems with your refrigeration (faulty compressors, bad location or poor service condition) then you will not solve your problem and quite possibly not get the benefits you hope for. But assuming your equipment is in reasonable shape expect a reasonable result.
'To be skeptical is fine; cynical is silly, biased is stupid'
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Guys!
May I suggest we stop answering these heavily biased posts from coldmetal and others.
I have just googled Universal Master Products.
Who are the Manufacturers etc of Endocube whose Business Development manager is a Richard Roy.
Coldmetals email is MProy@ hotmail.co.uk therefore as I have never had an answer as to who we are talking to?
I can only assume a vested interest.
So unless you want to keep talking about this Krap?
Just back off and the system will eject the post as per any other unanswered post.
Or should it be reported as SPAM?
Grizzly
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
HAHA The name's Grizzly... 00Grizzly Licensed to Google
Been keeping an eye on this one ,the only thing I got out of it was dizzy from Coldmetal talking ring's around everyone but providing fook all along the line of Hard facts.
Cheers
Stu
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Grizzly
Guys!
May I suggest we stop answering these heavily biased posts from coldmetal and others.
I have just googled Universal Master Products.
Who are the Manufacturers etc of Endocube whose Business Development manager is a Richard Roy.
Coldmetals email is MProy@ hotmail.co.uk therefore as I have never had an answer as to who we are talking to?
I can only assume a vested interest.
So unless you want to keep talking about this Krap?
Just back off and the system will eject the post as per any other unanswered post.
Or should it be reported as SPAM?
Grizzly
Hi Grizzly
I think leave it up there as anyone who 'googles' the cube will end up here
See the facts and arguments against
And see ZERO proof from the manufacturers spin doctor [well spotted cluesoe;)]
R's chillerman
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
out of intrest how hygroscopic is snake oil- and why cant i get any from climate ctr:D
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Coldmetal, you read what you want see. I have not passed on the info to Prof Don, I would not embarrass myself by passing on your comments. They contain no engineering or scientific opinion for him to comment on.
Please provide an energy mass balance of a system with and without the endocube.(refrigeration engineering)
please provide a scientific paper, that counter argues the presumed norm of close control of food products. This should include effects of enzymatic, bacterial and of internal and external vapour pressure on the quality and longevity of food products (food technology).
You keep saying that we have a vested interest, a vested interest in what. I will tell you from my point of view. I have a vested interest in the "TRUTH".
You prove to use that it works,(as you keep claiming), then you will have at least one convert. But to date you have not given one piece of evidence that can back up your claims.
There well may be 100,000s sold, your marketing pitch is excellent and to those who do not know or understand the cold food chain, your pitch is convincing, hence the orders. But this is an engineering site, with many experts from all over the world, who because of our knowledge or lack of sometimes "why we ask and question", can make highly educated appraisals based upon facts.
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Sherlock Grizzly. "the man"
The last statement made by coldmetal, clearly shows he knows FA about refrigeration.
But what a business 100,000s sold at what I believe is $300 a pop, WOW, I wish I was dishonest and not "mad",
I too could be a rich blow hard.
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Quote:
Originally Posted by
install monkey
out of intrest how hygroscopic is snake oil- and why cant i get any from climate ctr:D
snake oil is really good for lubricating snakes. ask any self respecting snake!
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Coldmetal
Jpsmith1cm
Well now we are talking.
What my experience is is that once you install the product you find that the refrigeration cycles are considerably reduced just as they say, but they are also extended. So when the compressor does come on it is on longer. Not really a surprise, since it isn't responding to Air anymore it takes longer to cool product. I don't think anyone would question that. (Maybe someone will surprise me).
But what happens next, and this takes longer on some equipment (typically on larger equipment -sometimes even upto 2 weeks) than on other types is that the equipment starts to run more smoothly. It is as though the compressor is actually happier running for longer but less often. If you know your equipment well you will feel it, like a well tuned car humming perfectly. Also factors such as the refrigerant is getting time to circulate properly, pressures equalise properly etc,etc. This is what I think they mean by 'efficiency improves'.
What is more interesting is that, over time, the temperature of the product drops (and what I mean by that is all the product -including newly introduced produce). This means you can then adjust your set point accordingly, nearly always by one or two points upwards. I monitor this with a data logger to make sure it's safe. The range of varience of the temperature of the food also reduces, which is where the food quality sometimes improves.
Anyway, that is what I think they are talking about when they refer to efficiency and I believe it is due to the longer cycles as well as the reduced number of cycles. Certainly if we think in terms of a car it is not at it's most efficient in the first few minutes before start up, it is also not very good for a car to keep stopping and starting and the advise with cars was always to make sure they regularly have a good run, why? because it will improve the overall efficiency of the engine!.
Now obviously the level of efficiency gain will be different for different compressors and due to a lot of other factors the overall benefit will be different in different refrigeration. But my belief is that this is the principle at work here.
I am actually not sure how one would measure this 'overall increase in efficiency' scientifically unless you look at factors such as energy consumption, food safety and food quality and possibly equipment lifespan. And all I am saying is that in my experience is, on those measures, it does a very good job, broadly in line with the claims they make. Obviously the equipment lifespan issue is much harder to measure but it makes sense to me and the anacdotal evidence is strong.
They don't, as far as I am aware, say that the Endocube is going to solve all the problems of refrigeration or that it will fix other types of faults. Because I can tell you that if you have other problems with your refrigeration (faulty compressors, bad location or poor service condition) then you will not solve your problem and quite possibly not get the benefits you hope for. But assuming your equipment is in reasonable shape expect a reasonable result.
'To be skeptical is fine; cynical is silly, biased is stupid'
As i asserted in the first line of my last post. Simply adding a product analog to your control thermostat will not increase efficiency.
Not in a day, not in a week, not in a month.
The only REAL way to realize increased efficiency is to put wrenches on the system and tune it.
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Well researched and said and done Grizzly. In same bracket as IceCold snake oil.
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Coldmetal
you have certainly come to the wrong place, expecting to find gullable fools to spin
I am certainly no scientist [so the world can still breeth easy] but I am in a position to carry out real world tests
If your company would like to send me a cube [FOC] then I would be happy to spend some time using it & recording the results
these would not include indepth analasyse of the product [which will still have to be assessed at some point]
but they will be a good starting block to show how it performs against a range of produce and system amp draw which the others here who all know me can rest assured they are recieving 100% fact and can also decide how and what they want me to do with it
I have yours & 'Guys' emails for contact... if you'd like to take advantage of this olive branch then I'll drop you a line with my address
R's chillerman
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
I did some digging today and came up with, among other things, an Australian phone number for Endocube. TRYING to keep an open mind, i called them to see if i could purchase, (not borrow) just one for a specific coldroom i had in mind. One that i know like the back of my hand.
Had to endure the sales pitch first :rolleyes: before i got a word in edgewise...So what will it cost me?.. Oh really, that much??.. Not worth the trouble as i was prepared to test this, at my own expense and any possible collateral damage... or not.
Not a good marketing plan as this potential customer has found out that your device is sold at a greatly reduced price elsewhere.. No free sausage sizzle or jumping castle here :(
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeref
I did some digging today and came up with, among other things, an Australian phone number for Endocube. TRYING to keep an open mind, i called them to see if i could purchase, (not borrow) just one for a specific coldroom i had in mind. One that i know like the back of my hand.
Had to endure the sales pitch first :rolleyes: before i got a word in edgewise...So what will it cost me?.. Oh really, that much??.. Not worth the trouble as i was prepared to test this, at my own expense and any possible collateral damage... or not.
Not a good marketing plan as this potential customer has found out that your device is sold at a greatly reduced price elsewhere.. No free sausage sizzle or jumping castle here :(
You are one up on me! I rang, they checked me out whilst talking to them, got a flea in the ear, and promise that a technical person would contact me. Not happened, I must be on the black list. I wonder why?
But good on your for having an open mind, and willing to have punt. Do you want to buy a "BOOST" go on please, pretty please, free FUD with every unit. Marketing not my strongest field.
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Hey frigi you trolling???
Are you getting it up the rump from or with Coldmetal??
Or are you just the usual bellend who think's he's witty?
Cheers
Stu
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Guess that answers that one. Twat.
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Hi Frigi, you should really get another email address if yous gonna pretend to be some averagy Joe from the States instead of one of our antipodean chums...
http://onergy.com.au/
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Quote:
Originally Posted by
frigi
Do any of you guys who blog on this site actually work, it seems like you spend all your life making comment about this endocube product. LOL
If you must know, I'm currently off work recuperating from a fairly minor injury sustained when I drove a 1/2" twist drill into my left hand.
All I've got to do is to hang out on the interweb blogs and harass snake-oil salesmen until I've fully healed and can get back to it.
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Quote:
Originally Posted by
frigi
Do any of you guys who blog on this site actually work, it seems like you spend all your life making comment about this endocube product. LOL
The really stupid thing is if you could prove your product worked, we'd all be interested in fitting them! Talk about a missed opertunity! I have said i'd like to try one but your uk rep seems not to be interested?
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Quote:
Originally Posted by
frigi
Do any of you guys who blog on this site actually work, it seems like you spend all your life making comment about this endocube product. LOL
Hello and welcome back, and why not make comments about endocube? This is work! I do sleep, root, eat, so not all my life, a couple of hours to date!
I do hope that you are going to furnish us with some engineering proof of principle.
That is all that is being requested!
"trust me that it works" does not count, we get this every day from politicians!
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jpsmith1cm
If you must know, I'm currently off work recuperating from a fairly minor injury sustained when I drove a 1/2" twist drill into my left hand.
All I've got to do is to hang out on the interweb blogs and harass snake-oil salesmen until I've fully healed and can get back to it.
Let me guess there JP, that you were trying to make your own version of an endocube, I would place the plastic block in a vice first!!!!!!!
When I was of worked injured, I also had ear ache.
Her Indoors was the cause
Hope you get better soon.
Mad
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Quote:
Originally Posted by
monkey spanners
The really stupid thing is if you could prove your product worked, we'd all be interested in fitting them! Talk about a missed opertunity! I have said i'd like to try one but your uk rep seems not to be interested?
I was after just one myself but not at the price i was quoted. :eek:
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeref
I was after just one myself but not at the price i was quoted. :eek:
Spill the beans there Mike, how much give or take a few $, not to break the rules.
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mad fridgie
Spill the beans there Mike, how much give or take a few $, not to break the rules.
5 bottles of Jamaican Rum.
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
I have just had a call from Onergy in Australia, I thank them for that.
They have emailed me the technical pack. Authorization was given to post.
The file is to big for me to post sorry boys and girls.
As a useless F*** that I am when come to computers and tinternet, I can not show you this.
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mad fridgie
Let me guess there JP, that you were trying to make your own version of an endocube, I would place the plastic block in a vice first!!!!!!!
When I was of worked injured, I also had ear ache.
Her Indoors was the cause
Hope you get better soon.
Mad
I suppose I could make a mock-up of the endocube for $5 or so.
A plastic box, a bit of gelatin and a mounting strap. Piece of cake.
Actually, I was working on a model car for my son and the bit broke through and caught my hand on the other side.
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Here is a snipet of the technical document
Attachment 8752
Your comments on this part of theory.
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Coldman thinks he can save 16 to 22% energy only by reducing start ups. What a good joke. Show us your calculation so that we can rectify this or explain at least why you're wrong. In a supermarket with a pack, it may cycle at a rate of 30 sec/30sec, the compressors will keep running, only the SV will cycle very short.
I'm surprised you could convince already so many peoples with your Tupperware box filled with perhaps simple gelly. Apparently all very bad technicians bought this or buyers in companies who don't understand the first word about thermodynamics.
You or one of you sales persons tried also to promote this on LinkedIn where there was the same skepticism of the readers.
Like Chillerman remarked, this thread was already picked up by Google's search engines and it's listed now already on the first page.
Endocube, Endocube, Endocube,..go on Google, pick up these last ones.
Endocube Snake Oil for the last time
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
And Frigi - aka Coldman - what stupid to act like this .Typical something for a salesman. Do YOU work ever if I count the length of your posts - excluding these on other websites - and the average lines you write/week? You're on the top this week on RE.
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mad fridgie
I have just had a call from Onergy in Australia, I thank them for that.
They have emailed me the technical pack. Authorization was given to post.
The file is to big for me to post sorry boys and girls.
Mad
if you email me it, can unload and post the link
R's chillerman
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeref
I was after just one myself but not at the price i was quoted. :eek:
Mike
forget endocube, I am selling enviro-balls
they may look like a dogs ball and have a few pictures of bones on the side, but trust me they are food safe ! :rolleyes:
mates rates of course, so $50 each if you buy a 1000
oh and you can get refrigeration managers that know jack diddly to buy them... sorted
R's chillerman
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Based on those figures "Mad", 3 minutes on and 2 minutes off gives us a 60% duty cycle.
8 minutes on and 7 minutes off gives us a 53.3% duty cycle. (I may seem a little picky here) but where did the other 6.7% of run/ cooling duty go?..
Maybe it was not accurate minutes logged to begin with.
Coldman,if i am to believe in actual savings without compromising my customers products, than a show of good faith would be an excellent start to your marketing.
I'd take advantage of the 50,000+ members here and hand out a free Endocube to the select few who feel your product is worth our independent test drive, so to speak.... Who knows, it may prove it's worth, or it may crash and burn. Your choice.. (I've given my advice freely @ my expense/hour) :)
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Thanks C.M. :) AKA, chillerman.
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Speaking to the concept of reducing starts to save energy.
You MAY save a couple of pennies worth of energy by doing this, but if I saw a system cycling off and on every two minutes, I would be questioning the setup of that system, not reaching for an Endocube.
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Quote:
Originally Posted by
monkey spanners
Hi Frigi, you should really get another email address if yous gonna pretend to be some averagy Joe from the States instead of one of our antipodean chums...
http://onergy.com.au/
Monkey how did you determine this? Just curious I tried to figure it out but was unable to.
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mad fridgie
I have just had a call from Onergy in Australia, I thank them for that.
They have emailed me the technical pack. Authorization was given to post.
The file is to big for me to post sorry boys and girls.
As a useless F*** that I am when come to computers and tinternet, I can not show you this.
The "Technical Pack" is not so very technical, just more sales literature, they claim CCFRA has independantly verified a 26% energy savings, which if true everyone woud want so why dont they publish the data from the study in there technical data sheet. They also claim in that document that there has been extensive in house and independent testing of their product which confirmed a "significant" reduction in energy use. The only reason I can see for them not being willing to share the data with potential customers is that their definition of "significant" and ours probably differ a bit.:D
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
Gents
as all the regulars here would know at a glance this is total bulls-turd
15: “How does endoCube affect the temperature inside the refrigerator or
freezer?”
A: endoCube actually lowers the air (“case”) temperature due to more efficient
cooling and, to compensate for this new lower temperature, the thermostat setting
is adjusted upward. In other words, endoCube achieves the same air temperature
with a higher set point, thus saving energy.
Right so lets break this down,
1: We want an air temp of 2*c so we set our equipment to 2*c
Result is 2*c air temp = X amount of energy used
2: We fit an endoncube so we adjust the set point to 4*c (as they say its 2*c out)
Result is 2*c air temp = exactly the same X amount of energy used
So where's the energy saving, surely buyers of ENDOCUBE Endocube endocube are not that stupid
It's been a long day and am shattered so thats just from a quick read
Can anyone else break down some of this 'Endocube Technical Pack' ?
R's chillerman (oh & aka cm, aint that right mike ?) ;)
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Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science
JP, I have to agree savings made on start up only would be very small. The inrush current size/time and residual heat caused by the in rush can be calculated, and so savings can be calculated. This data I do not have to predicted with absolute accuracy. (need to come from a comp manufacturer)
Cycling times, will vary from application to application, but the need for close control to ensure food quality is driving this requirement. Are the food techs, giving use wrong info?
Emmett; I have been onto CCFRA, they are unable to furnish any documents (confidentially), I have reworded a question, to confirm that at least some testing has been completed. No response on this one. I have no known contacts within this company.
A tech data sheet would be great, as at least we could analyze this, and check testing methods.
I would check out the Endocube site in the USA, check their results! Looks good to the untrained eye.
The REAL cm.
You talking about an energy mass balance, energy in-energy out. When testing anything, you must always compare apples for apples. That is why companies spend millions on test gear, so that they repeatability. As far as I can see, the endocube data has been cherry picked, to show results. As we all know simple changes in air temp and humidity dramatically changes the refrigeration load and refrigeration equipment performance.
Do a test on a hot and humid day, then a test on a cold dry day. What a great saving I will have made. No changes to anything.