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Thread: R22 venting?!?
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06-08-2009, 07:28 PM #1
R22 venting?!?
Hey everyone,
Went to a large site today, at the site there are several refrig/ac companies with smaller contracts on different pieces of kit.
Whilst i was waiting for the maintenance guys i spotted another tech from a firm around my area, we got chatting. He explained he was just a maintenance bloke for the company, carrying out the service.
I had a look at the kit and noticed something strange, oh and he was brushing off the condensers while i was chatting to him.
Anyway he had his steps out a brush, bottle of R22 and a hose attached to the bottle, no manifold just the hose.
Im just putting two and two together but it seems obvious that he was using the R22 to blow through the condensers.
R22 is working out quite cheap....
Really does annoy me considering i reclaimed 120g from a chiller this morning, the reckless twit may have vented 20x that amount.
Ggggrrrrr
Should really report it but theres no solid evidence im just going by what i saw!
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06-08-2009, 11:41 PM #2
Re: R22 venting?!?
Report it to the site staff if nothing else.
Get him and his firm kicked off.Brian - Newton Abbot, Devon, UK
Retired March 2015
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07-08-2009, 12:36 AM #3
Re: R22 venting?!?
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07-08-2009, 12:54 AM #4
Re: R22 venting?!?
I tend to agree with Gary, but would explain to the individual what he is doing to the enviroment, and suggest compressed air is cheaper as well. If they ignor reasonable advise then cut the ground from under them.
Mainly because we have the big ozone hole down here in NZ., and get fried in summer and all the skin cancer stuff added for free.
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07-08-2009, 01:54 AM #5
Re: R22 venting?!?
i have used old bottles for compressed air for the same thing.
if your positive it was 22 make your own decision,then have a chat to the client about producing documentation that proves any contractor or representative is licensed to work on such equipment or with prescribed substances.hopefully they will catch on quickly given that it may not comply with their ohs&w policy that should be in place.
sounds like a job for multisync,just being humerous multiLast edited by lowcool; 07-08-2009 at 01:58 AM.
mmm to beer or not to beer...........lets drink breakfast
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07-08-2009, 02:06 AM #6
Re: R22 venting?!?
Hi Lowcool,
I have also used old jugs for same purpose, friggen hopeless, so bought a luggable air compressor for the job.
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07-08-2009, 02:30 AM #7
Re: R22 venting?!?
Seems odd he would use R22 like this right in front of you. Could have had compressed air in it; maybe not a totally brilliant way to do it since it arouses suspicion. Ever notice the environmental police don't like to tell you that the biggest ozone holes/paths coincide with the major jet routes and that the biggest hole of all is punched in by the space shuttle. For that matter aviation fuel (dunno about jet fuel) still has lead in it??? How bad can all this stuff really be? The $4500 'clunker trade-in ' program here in the states totally discounts the enormous amount of energy required just to mint an entire brand new car. No one is looking at the *entire* energy balance sheet. No one.
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07-08-2009, 02:47 AM #8
Re: R22 venting?!?
gday magoo
friggen useless i agree,as you say we can have one man portable jobs now.used to do the rounds with a fridgy/electrician in my young days around the yorkes peninsula and mid north.i used to have the honour of pressurising those 5 foot lpg cylinders to 120 psi (or whatever we could get out the old girl)for condenser cleans.mmm to beer or not to beer...........lets drink breakfast
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07-08-2009, 03:10 AM #9
Re: R22 venting?!?
Lowcool.
You worked up at Cape York., crokadily things etc.., snappy bytie things. Not for me. I like having a BBQ without people being snapped by the local wildlife. Jeeez who would live up there.
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07-08-2009, 03:25 AM #10
Re: R22 venting?!?
sorry magoo
thats yorkes peninsula in south australia,the thing with a foot at the bottom if you have a map.havent done cape york yet.but there is plenty of big bitey things spread over the north end of oz,inland also.
love it up north now i feel sort of homesick but i am from sth ozLast edited by lowcool; 07-08-2009 at 03:28 AM. Reason: best fishing in the world!
mmm to beer or not to beer...........lets drink breakfast
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07-08-2009, 08:00 AM #11
Re: R22 venting?!?
Let me get this straight you put compressed air on an old R22 bottle..oh...my...god.
I look forward to seeing you on the Darwin awards website some day soon.
It's clear that most are coming round to the fact that if we don't help our industry and the enviroment by self policing no one will. Sadly there is no excuse for illegally venting. Like speeding a lot do but if you get caught it's no use moaning 'poor me' about it.
If he had a bottle of R22 he should -by law- be in possession of a safe handling certficate. . If he hasn't then he is working illegally but if he has he is still working illegally by venting.
It's interesting that most of those coming here with horror stories are the young and most defending the bad practice are the old.
Hopefully the old fools here will one day learn that they aren't always right and perhaps they should ease back with their bodger 'git'r'done' approach and promote good practice.
Next time you are on site get a picture of him blowing out the condensers. Then send it to the local EHO authority or F-Gas support with the details.
Don't forget his poor work ways will reflect on the customer. The client may not know his contractors are operating in an illegal manner. Most facilities managers will be grateful if you highlight this because he will get in deep doo doo if their company is dragged into a court case with all the bad publicity it could generate.
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07-08-2009, 11:03 AM #12
Re: R22 venting?!?
Off topic a bit, but...
Quoted from NASA:
Q. Is it true that launching the Space Shuttle creates a local ozone hole, and that the Space Shuttle releases more chlorine than all industrial uses worldwide?
A. No, that is not true. NASA has studied the effects of exhaust from the Space Shuttle's solid rocket motors on the ozone. In a 1990 report to Congress, NASA found that the chlorine released annually in the stratosphere (assuming launches of nine Shuttle missions and six Titan IVs -- which also have solid rocket motors -- per year) would be about 0.25 percent of the total amount of halocarbons released annually worldwide (0.725 kilotons by the Shuttle 300 kilotons from all sources).
The report concludes that Space Shuttle launches at the current rate pose no significant threat to the ozone layer and will have no lasting effect on the atmosphere. The exhaust plume from the Shuttle represents a trivial fraction of the atmosphere, and even if ozone destruction occurred within the initial plume, its global impact would be inconsequential.
Further, the corridor of exhaust gases spreads over a lateral extent of greater than 600 miles in a day, so no local "ozone hole" could occur above the launch site. Images taken by NASA's Total Ozone Mapping Spectrometer at various points following Shuttle launches show no measurable ozone decrease.
Very little AVGas is burned compared to JP-5 (Jet fuel). While some AVGas (but not most by a long shot) still has lead in it, most of it does not. JP-5 is essentially Kerosene and there isn't a need for an anti-pinging compound in a turbine so no lead additive.
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07-08-2009, 11:13 PM #13
Re: R22 venting?!?
That was the reason I suggested the site staff. They will not want unsafe practices being performed on their property and the threat of loss of earnings will often do more than the threat of legal action.
You seem to have an aversion to playing safe Gary or is it just not wanting to be caught out yourself?
I'm not one for bleating to the environmental nazis as I couldn't stand the paperwork but there are always other means available.Brian - Newton Abbot, Devon, UK
Retired March 2015
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08-08-2009, 12:15 AM #14
Re: R22 venting?!?
The only thing that's unsafe about venting R22 is getting caught.
If the guy wants to take his chances on getting caught, that's his choice. If he get's caught, he lost the gamble... too bad.
Would I turn him in to anyone? Hell no. I hate thieves and dictators and refuse to become their accomplice.Last edited by Gary; 08-08-2009 at 12:20 AM.
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08-08-2009, 04:57 AM #15
Re: R22 venting?!?
Hi Lowcool.
I /we have been to most parts of OZ., me not to your neck of the woods. I am keen to catch up some time so long as you can assure that no snappy things are around your BBQ.
We are a bit spoilt here with nothing that whats to eat anyone, let alone snakes, spiders, ants with attitude or get tramped by big reds.
This will confuse the hell out of posters with what I am talking about.
magoo
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08-08-2009, 10:43 AM #16
Re: R22 venting?!?
The bloke i work for is very stuck in his ways. I think most guys like me who are fairly new to the industry (0-10yrs) have never known the industry with no rules and regs, plus i just like being as professional as possible.
I think the the argument comes down to a couple of things.....
If your happy to go out and buy all the reclaim equipment, good quality kit and hundreds of pounds worth of qualifications to work in the industry legally, and then follow bad practices and not help to enforce the law....no point in doing the qualifications and buying the kit. Is there??
Aslong as people get away with not reclaiming and venting and bad practices the industry will always be full of holes, meaning the majority of engineers who take their role seriously and invest in their career and take pride in their job will loose out big time by always being undercut on price.
Dont get me wrong i think reclaiming less than 300g of refrigerant is the biggest pain in the arse, but we all gotta do it
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08-08-2009, 02:07 PM #17
Re: R22 venting?!?
Last edited by Gary; 08-08-2009 at 03:05 PM.
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08-08-2009, 03:15 PM #18
Re: R22 venting?!?
Old people know more about being young than young people know about being old. Been there done that.
The problem with the young is that they haven't been around long enough to recognize a scam when they see it.
The beauty in the fixing-a-future-problem scam is that by the time the evidence is in, the thieves are long gone... and a new set of thieves appear with a new set of future problems to be fixed, and a new group of young fools to fall for the scam.
The scam artists would like you to believe that old people are stuck in their ways and are afraid of change. Well... think about just how ludicrous and meaningless that statement is. Winning the lottery is change. A sharp stick in the eye is change. I don't know of anyone, young or old, who is afraid of winning the lottery. Only a young moron welcomes a sharp stick in the eye.
And then there is the "conspiracy nut" ploy. Those who play along with the scam stand to profit from it and those who oppose it are ridiculed as "conspiracy nuts", so a great many people play along with the scam and thus become accomplices. Is that a conspiracy? You tell me.Last edited by Gary; 08-08-2009 at 05:07 PM.
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08-08-2009, 05:02 PM #19
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08-08-2009, 05:14 PM #20
Re: R22 venting?!?
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08-08-2009, 06:00 PM #21
Re: R22 venting?!?
Getting properly trained and licensed is far better than buying some dodgy book of the internet and thinking you are a fridge man. (it is also the law in the UK- so get over it...)
Basically you condone those who break the law, champion 'bodgers' against skilled engineers, encourage venting of refrigerant and think the whole world is a conspiracy with all this talk of Nazi's and dictators paranoid old hippie nonsense....
Like it or not the law in the UK states you must be registered to work and venting refrigerant is illegal. Don't come over here and tell us we are wrong. Look to your country and see the waste of natural resources with a wanton disregard towards the earth and it's future. (let alone the children of the world)
We had many many chances to self regulate but chose to ignore it because of old dinosaurs with their "You can't tell me nothing" approach
So -like seat belts etc - if the people won't voluntarily change then they will be forced by law. That's how it works, that's how it's always worked. The recent measures were taken because we wouldn't clean up our own act then we must accept the consequences of our reluctance.
(The beauty of the seat belt law was it was self regulating. IE those who refused ended up going through the windscreen thereby taking their stupidity with them.)
You may not agree with global warming, -so what nor do I- but I respect that we must accept the world is different and we must behave responsibly.
There are those here who say these laws don't protect lives, read about the ozone layer and skin cancer...
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08-08-2009, 06:04 PM #22
Re: R22 venting?!?
Most con games are based on the inherent dishonesty of the "mark". The mark turns over his money to the con artist in the belief that he has become an accomplice in the fleecing of a third party.
If/when the third party refuses to be fleeced, it is the mark who has been robbed.
The mark then blames the third party for their refusal to roll over and take it.
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08-08-2009, 06:17 PM #23
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08-08-2009, 06:23 PM #24
Re: R22 venting?!?
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08-08-2009, 06:26 PM #25
Re: R22 venting?!?
I don't know. Do you?
Show me the proof. Surely the CFC's have reached the ozone layer by now. There should be positive proof... or are people still pointing at the hole in the ozone... which may or may not have been there all along... or maybe enriching the politicians and their friends has prevented it from happening?Last edited by Gary; 08-08-2009 at 06:38 PM.
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08-08-2009, 06:32 PM #26
Re: R22 venting?!?
A few centuries back, Columbus (using the state of the art science of the day) told a group of natives that his God was angry and would turn day into night. Sure enough, there was a solar eclipse, the natives were converted and Columbus became king. Isn't science wonderful?
Did the natives cause the eclipse?
Could worshiping/obeying Columbus and/or his God have prevented it?
Seems doubtful.Last edited by Gary; 08-08-2009 at 06:43 PM.
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08-08-2009, 07:36 PM #27
Re: R22 venting?!?
Am I opposed to training? Obviously not.
Am I opposed to skilled engineers? Obviously not.
Why pretend that I have said something that I have not? Ran out of rational arguments and resorting to irrational ones?
Do I recommend breaking outrageous laws? No... this would be dangerous because the informers will rat you out and the dictators will punish you. It's safer to obey the laws, but that doesn't mean you have to believe the b*llsh*t.
Do I obey the people with all the guns? Yes, when I must... but I don't buy into their rationalizations. They can control my actions, but they can't control my mind. B*llsh*t is still b*llsh*t.
Has old hippie nonsense been replaced by new age nonsense? You really should do your homework. The paranoid old hippie nonsense is what started the paranoid (the sky is falling/end of the world) environmental movement nonsense. These are your roots, not mine.Last edited by Gary; 08-08-2009 at 08:18 PM.
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08-08-2009, 07:53 PM #28
Re: R22 venting?!?
Transvestites are men who like to eat, drink, and be Mary.
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08-08-2009, 08:36 PM #29
Re: R22 venting?!?
That's almost beside the point. Even if it can be proven that the Earth is getting warmer that doesn't mean anything can be done about it or that enriching the politicians and their buddies is going to accomplish anything... aside from enriching the politicians and their buddies.
Last edited by Gary; 08-08-2009 at 08:51 PM.
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09-08-2009, 01:49 AM #30
Re: R22 venting?!?
Well we sure have come a long way when we do not know for certain that any R22 was actually vented.
And a government report was cited as proof that the shuttle does not punch holes in the ozone. Wow, there are people out there that would believe everything their government tells them. Like Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. As Gary eloquently said, "They can control my actions, but they can't control my mind. B*llsh*t is still b*llsh*t."
The earth has gone through numerous hot-cold cycles throughout the ages. Period. We really cannot control that, and it will occur no matter what we do. Geology is the science that tells us this, not the government. I think the mods should close this thread.
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09-08-2009, 07:41 AM #31
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09-08-2009, 07:50 AM #32
Re: R22 venting?!?
Civilisation only became about due to laws. Sadly human beings will revert to type as soon as they feel they can get away with it. Look at the LA riots for an easy example.
People elect people to govern them. That's democracy. These 'elected' people have decided that refrigerants and those working with them need to be regulated. That isn't a dictatorship that's democracy in action.
It is not possible that everyone agrees with every law. But democracy by it's nature means the greater good. If you don't like it then what do you like?
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09-08-2009, 08:04 AM #33
Re: R22 venting?!?
Do you want me to dig out your infamous "Bodgers are getting it done" quote?
Do I recommend breaking outrageous laws? No... this would be dangerous because the informers will rat you out and the dictators will punish you. It's safer to obey the laws, but that doesn't mean you have to believe the b*llsh*t.
Do I obey the people with all the guns? Yes, when I must... but I don't buy into their rationalizations. They can control my actions, but they can't control my mind. B*llsh*t is still b*llsh*t.
Has old hippie nonsense been replaced by new age nonsense? You really should do your homework. The paranoid old hippie nonsense is what started the paranoid (the sky is falling/end of the world) environmental movement nonsense. These are your roots, not mineLast edited by multisync; 09-08-2009 at 08:48 AM.
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09-08-2009, 08:28 AM #34
Re: R22 venting?!?
A bottle of R22 with a single hose on it, some clean condensers and some dirty condensers. Not proof as the OP suggests but beyond reasonable doubt??
And a government report was cited as proof that the shuttle does not punch holes in the ozone. Wow, there are people out there that would believe everything their government tells them. Like Saddam had weapons of mass destruction.
As Gary eloquently said, "They can control my actions, but they can't control my mind. B*llsh*t is still b*llsh*t."
The earth has gone through numerous hot-cold cycles throughout the ages. Period. We really cannot control that, and it will occur no matter what we do. Geology is the science that tells us this, not the government.
I think the mods should close this thread.
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09-08-2009, 08:46 AM #35
Re: R22 venting?!?
No one 'worried' about drink driving or going head first through the windscreen. Laws changed and were enforced more vigorously. Now we all -usually- buckle up and few if any condone drink driving. The world changes and we must change with it.
Our trade is a ragtag bunch of the poorly trained and/or badly managed. Supermarkets piss all over their contractors bankrupting them almost on a whim. Why, because we drifted along completely unregulated a few blokes here and there 'getting by'
This law -if we choose- will allow us to gain some kudos we can become recognised as a skilled trade not just an add on as seen on the side of a van:
"security, cameras, alarms- oh and air conditioning"
"Electrical installations, domestic, commercial- oh and air conditioning"
"heating, plumbing, gaswork- oh and air conditioning"
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09-08-2009, 08:55 AM #36
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09-08-2009, 04:16 PM #37
Re: R22 venting?!?
Last edited by Gary; 09-08-2009 at 05:07 PM.
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09-08-2009, 04:26 PM #38
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09-08-2009, 04:33 PM #39
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09-08-2009, 05:28 PM #40
Re: R22 venting?!?
Not so long ago, people were tortured and burnt at the stake based on the theory that this would save their immortal souls. That's right, it was for their own good.
The politicians are the same. The informants are the same. The punishments are less severe... so far. The only thing that has changed is the religion. The new religion is environmentalism.
What gives you the right to force your beliefs on others? What gives you the right to punish others based on your unproven theories? Just who the hell do you think you are?Last edited by Gary; 09-08-2009 at 05:52 PM.
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09-08-2009, 07:40 PM #41
Re: R22 venting?!?
is it just me or does anyone else do it by the book just because they cant get away with doing it wrong. the only reason id tout so to speak on someone venting r22 is because i have to reclaim it.
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09-08-2009, 07:41 PM #42
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09-08-2009, 07:43 PM #43
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09-08-2009, 07:48 PM #44
Re: R22 venting?!?
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09-08-2009, 08:08 PM #45
Re: R22 venting?!?
Last edited by Gary; 09-08-2009 at 08:13 PM.
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09-08-2009, 08:19 PM #46
Re: R22 venting?!?
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09-08-2009, 08:25 PM #47
Re: R22 venting?!?
gary i take it you dont like the fgas then
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09-08-2009, 08:30 PM #48
Re: R22 venting?!?
Slavery was once the law, complete with informants and severe punishments. And it had popular support. Now the laws are just the opposite.
Was slavery right then, but wrong now? Or was slavery always wrong?
Should laws be obeyed when they are just plain wrong?... just because "it's the law"?
Should we all become informants just because "it's the law"?
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09-08-2009, 08:45 PM #49
Re: R22 venting?!?
Last edited by Gary; 09-08-2009 at 08:47 PM.
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09-08-2009, 09:19 PM #50
Re: R22 venting?!?
I have no problem with people believing whatever they want to believe, nor spreading the word far and wide, so long as they are not forcing their beliefs on others.
As soon as some idiot says, "Let's pass a law", thus inviting the participation of the low life, bottom feeding, scum of the earth, dregs of humanity, scumbag politicians, then the belief system has crossed the line and poses a very real (not theoretical) danger to the rest of us.Last edited by Gary; 09-08-2009 at 09:38 PM.
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