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20-05-2009, 11:53 PM #1
UK, Asylum and Immigration Act - Question
This question is related to UK employment law and it is raised by me because I am getting old and crotchety.
My employer has asked, somewhat brusquely, for sight of my passport to prove that I am able to work in the UK.
They quoted the recently amended Immigration Act and in particular sections 15-25 which detail the things that the company needs to do to have an "excuse" for employing a non UK Citizen legally.
When I asked for clarification of the legal requirement for me to have to produce my passport, or other documents, they simply send me a copy of the Employers Guide from the Home Office, Border Security, and told me to phone the Home Office if I had any queries.
Now I am a full UK Citizen and have been since I was born here 61 years ago; I have a UK(EU) passport and object to this demand to have more records of me kept by A N Other.
As this request to see my passport is not a "repeat" viewing I do not feel that I have a need to show my passport.
Having checked with the Home Office they confirmed that there is nothing in Law which says that I must produce my passport to prove that I am eligible to work in the UK.
However they do advise Company's that they may be able to threaten employees for being in breach of contract if there is such a demand in the Terms and Conditions of Employment.
My question therefore is this:-
My T&C state, "This offer is also subject to you being eligible to work in the UK under the terms of the Asylum and Immigration Act."
Does this clause provide enough leverage for the Company to insist on proceeding with their actions or can I tell'em to shove it?
Brian - Newton Abbot, Devon, UK
Retired March 2015
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21-05-2009, 12:02 AM #2
Re: UK, Asylum and Immigration Act - Question
Brian, the best thing to do is this......tomorrow turn up for work wearing full Hijab. Insist your new name is Tracey and that you are now a lesbian........oh and your disabled.
That will stop the questions and scare the beggers, you will be left in peace to fix your fridges
Eggs
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21-05-2009, 12:13 AM #3
Re: UK, Asylum and Immigration Act - Question
Yep, a good plan, I'll try it at the next team talk.
Brian - Newton Abbot, Devon, UK
Retired March 2015
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21-05-2009, 01:10 AM #4
Re: UK, Asylum and Immigration Act - Question
And what if you do not have a passport?..There are still plenty of brits who don't have one.... Or yours has expired amd for the purpose of what they want has no valid legality...
Has the person inspecting your passport attended the realavent course for passport inspection? Surly there is information on a passport which may be subject to the data protection act... And what if a passport was fake... How would they know?
Tell 'em to go swivel.... Perhaps this attitude is why I work on my own.
If they want to know, I'd suggest that they go and look for the records of your birth... This attitude really makes me mad.... The solution is simple though... If you are claiming dole, then here is your ticket...Karl
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21-05-2009, 11:06 PM #5
Re: UK, Asylum and Immigration Act - Question
A Birth Certificate is a document of public record and therefore open to inspection.
I would give your employer the date and place of your birth. They can obtain the requisite document themselves.
Not everyone has a passport, nor do we have id cards.
Im intrigued why they asking you, do you speak with a strange accent, eat sheeps testicles in the company canteen or dress differently?Any opinions, statements and facts expressed in this message do not constitute legal advice in any shape or form and is given for a general outlook in nature. You are advised to seek appropriate and specific professional assistance from a regulated and authorised advisor for definitive advice.
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21-05-2009, 11:12 PM #6
Re: UK, Asylum and Immigration Act - Question
Your contract is subject to your eligibility to work in the UK.
It does not state how you prove this eligibility or whos responsibility it is to prove the right you possess to work here.
It is a poorly drafted term.
Someone must prove eligibility, I would think since you want to work, the onus is upon you to prove this.
Give them your name, (sic) your DOB and Place.
They can do the restAny opinions, statements and facts expressed in this message do not constitute legal advice in any shape or form and is given for a general outlook in nature. You are advised to seek appropriate and specific professional assistance from a regulated and authorised advisor for definitive advice.
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21-05-2009, 11:16 PM #7
Re: UK, Asylum and Immigration Act - Question
Any opinions, statements and facts expressed in this message do not constitute legal advice in any shape or form and is given for a general outlook in nature. You are advised to seek appropriate and specific professional assistance from a regulated and authorised advisor for definitive advice.
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21-05-2009, 11:43 PM #8
Re: UK, Asylum and Immigration Act - Question
Thanks Guys.
Karl, in place of a passport they will accept a full birth certificate and proof of original national insurance number.
Well, when I was little they didn't issue those plastic cards you just got a number from someone when you started work.
I suppose by basic question in all of this is:-
As a UK national am I subject to the Immigration Act?
I ask because I have never immigrated in my life.
Jeez, I am turning further into a Grumpy Old Man.Brian - Newton Abbot, Devon, UK
Retired March 2015
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22-05-2009, 12:16 AM #9
Re: UK, Asylum and Immigration Act - Question
As a UK national, you may be a member of an ethnic minority.......
Karl
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22-05-2009, 12:40 AM #10
Re: UK, Asylum and Immigration Act - Question
Tell them you are working under cover for MI -5, and that you are not able to divolge such information.
magoo
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22-05-2009, 07:25 PM #11
Re: UK, Asylum and Immigration Act - Question
And don't forget to tell 'em that you are PREGNANT as well
I would have thought that if you have a National Insurance number issued by the UK Government then they have already accepted that you are entitled to work in the UK. After all, they take your N.I. contributions and Tax deductions willingly enough.
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22-05-2009, 11:01 PM #12
Re: UK, Asylum and Immigration Act - Question
^ Very good point Frank.
Brian - Newton Abbot, Devon, UK
Retired March 2015
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23-05-2009, 05:44 AM #13
Re: UK, Asylum and Immigration Act - Question
Any opinions, statements and facts expressed in this message do not constitute legal advice in any shape or form and is given for a general outlook in nature. You are advised to seek appropriate and specific professional assistance from a regulated and authorised advisor for definitive advice.
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23-05-2009, 10:02 AM #14
Re: UK, Asylum and Immigration Act - Question
I'm sure that showing the documents asked for should be no problem, if everything is in order.
Perhaps I'm missing some background to the whole story here, but, from the outside it would appear that prejudice is being shown against the OP, in him, a UK citizen, by birth, being asked to show a passport & eligibility to work in his motherland.
If it's an issue of colour or racial bias, then it should be dealt with firmly.
If all things are in order, then the employer should be informed in no uncertain terms that bias appears to have been shown, & that offense has been taken.
There is absolutely no need whatsoever for the citizen of any country to show a passport, or work-permit - local ID documents should always be sufficient.
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23-05-2009, 10:11 PM #15
Re: UK, Asylum and Immigration Act - Question
I tend to agree with you DesA but am against it in principle because we seem to be becoming a police state within the UK (my opinion anyway); with so many cameras and petty laws allowing all and sundry to spy upon us.
The rules, as written, are aware of the possibility of racial bias so suggest that the way around that is to include 'everyone'. Using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
Regarding your last comment, we, in the UK, as yet do not have a national or local ID document (as yet.)Brian - Newton Abbot, Devon, UK
Retired March 2015
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24-05-2009, 03:25 AM #16
Re: UK, Asylum and Immigration Act - Question
Then I can certainly see where difficulties can & most certainly must arise in everyday life.
How on earth does one go about proving one's identity, when necessary, or upon request?
The US has the social-security card, or local driver's license as a suitable local ID. South Africa issues a national ID book/card. In Asia, there are a combination of documents used - local ID card, house registration, family register - for these purposes.
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24-05-2009, 08:57 AM #17
Re: UK, Asylum and Immigration Act - Question
The "quirk" about Britishness , in the past, has always been based on an individuals honesty, justice, the concept of innocense till proved guilty, and of fair play.
By way of small example, the rows of milk bottles left on a doorstep exemplified this principle.
Life has changed, in the last 20 years and more........
The environment has changed, demographics, culture, religion......its being a metarmorphises, ( I cant spell that word)
So, to keep within the rules, it dont matter if you speak in a dialect that stems from the depths of rural England, have a face as ruddy as a Lincolnshire potato farmer or the thick arms of someone from Shropshire.
The prim and unassuming position of the HR Manager, peering above her varifocals will insist upon some form of ID, to enable the tick on the check list that the employee has passed the "right to work" test.
In the ansence of an ID, card, whats the next best thing?, a passport...........
As a lawyer I undertake ID checks onmost of my clients. I will ask either a passport or a drivers license. In my case I am determining if the person IS the person who they claim to be.
I am not establishing a right they have, so my check is different.
Were I to be a HR Officer, I would use my basic god given common sense, and tick that box without insisting upon any proof, where I can determine the person has a right to work...based on a balance of probability.
However, the rules may state that evidential material of proof must be contained within the file.
Others, may want to stick to the letter and put in the file, a positive iD record in that folder.That way it becomes a "certainty"Any opinions, statements and facts expressed in this message do not constitute legal advice in any shape or form and is given for a general outlook in nature. You are advised to seek appropriate and specific professional assistance from a regulated and authorised advisor for definitive advice.
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24-05-2009, 12:06 PM #18
Re: UK, Asylum and Immigration Act - Question
Similar sentiments to my comments in another thread
Originally Posted by ABE;
Does your employer already have a copy of your licence Brian?
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24-05-2009, 08:17 PM #19
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27-05-2009, 11:33 AM #20
Re: UK, Asylum and Immigration Act - Question
Frank
The credit size drivers licence does not indicate the number of points they have, you need to see the counterfoil.
Keep a copy of the counterfoil in your file.
In your contract of employment put in a clause saying this,
" For insurance purposes the employee will inform the company know at any time that the employee is awarded penalty points on your licence"
This way if an employee fails to let you know, then he is in breach of his contractual obligation and subject to dismissal for gross misconduct. You dont have to dismiss of course, but at least place a letter of warning in his file , so if in the event something like this happens again, you have a record in place.
In your company handbook, stipulate that a driving conviction whilst driving a company vehicle constitutes gross misconduct on the part of the employee.
Insurance is no joking matter, so I take this very seriouslyAny opinions, statements and facts expressed in this message do not constitute legal advice in any shape or form and is given for a general outlook in nature. You are advised to seek appropriate and specific professional assistance from a regulated and authorised advisor for definitive advice.