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  1. #1
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    Talking R-22 with ester oils



    Does anybody really knows what happens using ester oils with R-22? Someone has told that there is not problem at all, but ive read that R-22 and mineral oils are apolar molecs, by the other hand R-404A and ester oils are polar molecs like water so they work well together. Does anybodoy knows if R-22 (apolar molecs) works well with POE (polar molecs)?
    (Sorry about my english)



  2. #2
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    I can only speak from my personal experience with grocery store parallel racks. I have no idea how the chemistry does/does not meld.

    Back when ester was first introduced, a client hopped aboard the bandwagon, and performed oil changes on all of their racks. Including the low temp R-22 machines, which are plentiful.

    Racks that had been trouble free for years suddenly became a great source of unexpected income.

    The main problem that we"ve seen, is the oil quality degrading due to higher than pleasant discharge temperatures, and, of course, the well known solvent effect of POE.

    We became almost overwhelmed with service calls within two weeks of the changes, with the majority of problems being plugged strainers.

    It was during this hectic period, that we becam aware of installation problems ranging from carbon buildup in the piping now freely circulating the system in the form of sludge, and, after the racks were sufficiently cleaned up, problems with the way the demand cooling systems were piped.

    The D.C headers in this particular chains' racks were piped in such a fashion that permitted flash gas to the compressors. It took somew time to actually notice this. Many "unfounded" service calls after a store manager reset a demand cool trip. (They got in the habit of resetting the controls and not calling...)

    With the problem with the d.c , came ballistically high discharge temps, that was literally baking the paint off the compressor heads, which, in turn, ruined the oil.

    By now, the "powers that was", so to speak, came to their senses, or sobered up, or something, and changed all the LT22 racks back to mineral 150 oil.

    Now, the high discharge temps will ruin ANY oil, but, I feel that POE did not stand up as well as 150SUS. POE is a hothouse orchid, and should be treated as such.

    I fail to see the benefit of replacing mineral oil with POE.

    I do service many 22 racks that utilize synthetic alkylates, (alkylbenzene) and feel that it holds up as well as, or better than mineral oil.

    The HFC's, such as 404a, do work very very well with POE, as long as they are kept clean.

    Again, nothing scientific, just a bit of empirical data that I've collected in the dark side of my memory from bad past experiences. Hope it helped.

  3. #3
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    We have been seeing new Russell medium temp condensing pre-charged with POE oil and suggesting R-22 as a refrigerant. These systems were (of course) clean and had very adequate condenser coils. The problems so far have be "zero."
    Bruce H. Robinson
    bhrobin@anchor-robinson.com
    company page: www.anchor-robinson.com
    personal page: www.anchor-robinson.com/bruce01.html

  4. #4
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    Unhappy

    Yeah. I did fail to mention that the problems disappeared and stayed away in the medium temp. racks.



    They went to AB or 150, anyway.

  5. #5
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    Approximately ten years ago, Wheatsone industry (they manufacture the "Scaveger" ***** reclaim/recovery machine). Their engineer did reseach on POE oil with the use of varieous ***** on the market. They concluded "....POE oil is a universal oil...it will work fine with any refrigerant..as long as the system is clean..."
    Be Happy

  6. #6
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    IMI Air conditioning have been manufacturing their condensing units, 407c or R22, with POE oils since 2000 with no problems and loads of working systems. I would suppose therefore that even on refrigeration equipment the correct grade of POE oil would work fine with R22.

  7. #7
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    I think condensedave's problems were mostly related to the washing effect of the POE's. Combined, I would bet, with the likelihood that the demand cooling headers were taken from the liquid line after the differential valve... increasing the likelihood of flash gas.

    Sporlan, Alco and all have finally arrived at an offering of oil filters and liquid filters designed to address the cleaning action of POE oils.

    As far as I know, POE oil works fine with R22 in both temperature ranges. We have a lot of R22 racks running that were installed with POE oils. I had hoped that the synthetics would hold up better to high temperatures than the mineral oils, but I have no evidence to support that hope, nor evidence to the reverse.

  8. #8
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    New systems with POE oil is good, don't change to POE in exsiting system seems to be the opinion here. Some of Daves problem may have been due to residual mineral oil as well. POE oils are worse than hothouse orcids. I had a bitter experience with a new set of 404 gages not pulling a good vacuum. I thought it was some water contamination problem, but it was a bad gage. Maybe I was a little parenoid about POE oil, but I still hate POE oil. There is no point in retrofitting when AB oil works so well.

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