Mixing POE and mineral oil

[ronaldo9]

Hey guys,

got a call to a site where system is not cooling sufficiently.(****ing surprise!)
basically the oil in the comp sight glass is a greyish colour. The system is 22 and is labelled for mineral oil, the compressor had an oil change about two weeks ago and the problems started a week ago. the contractor who carried out the change doesnt understand the way these systems are set-up and thats why we where called in.
My question is apart from getting a test kit for the oil what is the best way for me to tell if they used synthetic oil by mistake? The grey oil is not right, the comp sounds ****, the EEV isnt letting enough gas through, could be blocked.looking at sensor problems due to insufficent SH.
We have all been in the situation where we are on someone elses site and the other way around, i dont want to screw this guy over i just want to get the problem sorted and get the **** out of there.
Id really appreciate some quick help, regards

[Quality]

I / we can apprieciate your concern over the the oil but the - system - does not tell us what your working with

[ronaldo9]

fair enough, its basically a packaged refrigeration unit designed for potato cooling.

[Thermatech]

Use a refractrometer
This measures the refractive index of the oil.
The original mineral oil will have a refractive index value & the synthetic oil will have a completely different refractive index value.
Both can be measured with the refractrometer instrument or oil manufacturer specification.
If the current oil sample is between the two virgin oil readings then you will know that the mineral oil has been contaminated with synthetic oil.

[ronaldo9]

Thanks Thermatech

I guess the refractrometer instrument is the only definitive way of knowing. Has anyone else ever seen grey oil?

[cadwaladr]

grey oil says to me mettalic prob ,something serious breaking down

[Gingerair]

Hi Ronaldo9

What sort of compressor is it ?? Can you drain any oil off into a clean cup(or similar) to get a better visual inspection ?? As Cadwalr said grey oil is not good, can sometimes be aluminium/white metal.

Can you see any other contamination through the liquid line sight-glass ??

Is there any chance that any water has entered your refrigeration system ?? Could explain your exv probs & when combined with oil/refrigerant will go straight for any light alloy i.e. the con-rods..if it's a recip..

If you can't turn the unit off till you've identified the problem, best bet is to just change the oil asap, carry out a 'one shot' oil acidity test on the old oil & even save some of the contaminated oil in a sealed container if you decide to send it away for a lab analysis at a not too later date..

The longer the comp runs with the dodgy oil the bigger the probability that it'll be damaged..

If your lucky & the contamination isn't too bad it'll probably take a few oil/filter drier changes to purge through..

Hope this helps..

[Magoo]

Hi
I think you may have aluminium flavoured oil with some moisture added.
Time for a compressor strip down and check.
magoo

[ironmen]

you have to restart again,do your own diagnostic stop standing around.drain the oil and replaced new oil.clean the entire system and then you will take it from there.

[powell]

Copeland states that POE oils can be mixed with mineral oil in some applications, including R-22.

Follow this link to Copeland AE bulletins and view 17-1248 in section 17.

http://www.hvacrinfo.com/ae_index.htm

[ronaldo9]

Thanks Powell execellent link, ill take my time sorting through that wealth of info.

Thanks everyone for their replies.

Got back to site today and i fixed the initial problem that i was called out for, i.e the control system. The problem the other contractor couldnt solve. Then i discussed the other issues which i mentioned in my first post with the customer, ie oil and a suspected minor leak. I explained the situation with R22 and that i could do a oil change and examine the old oil for any signs of compressor damage. Not interested. Would get his own guy to look at it. i said fair enough but dont come crying to me when you loose a compressor or you cant get gas to keep the system going .
These issues come down to one ****ing problem, money!! Its their equipment not mine and im the one trying to persuade him to get some work done so it doesnt cost him ten times as much in the future. Instead he wants to use his own cheaper guy who doesnt seem to be looking after the equipment.....Anyway end of rant.

One last thing "ironmen"
",do your own diagnostic stop standing around.drain the oil and replaced new oil.clean the entire system and then you will take it from there."

replace the oil??,, who is going to pay for the oil and my time putting it in, "there was an oil change done two weeks ago it didnt need another oil change, im not paying for that."
i should have taken your advice changed the oil and sent you the bill, cause there was no way they were going to pay.

[Gingerair]

Thanks Powell, that is a very interesting link..

Not sure if ironmen intended to be so blunt ronaldo9, something could be getting 'lost in translation' there...or maybe he's got a grudge against the perma-tan winker..

Just one thing to consider re the original thread, when retro-fitting an R22 system, say with R407c, some manufactures procedure would include draining any oil from the system, then adding POE oil, running & then checking the refractive index, this is repeated until the percentage of mineral oil falls below a specified value..

This considered, i'm presuming that a mixture of mineral & POE oil's at a high ratio could possibly be tolerated in a system over a short period, but wouldn't be recommended..

As long as you've told you're customer what they need to do, when it falls over you can tell them that you told them so & they may listen to you next time !!

[ironmen]

why you get me wrong?im trying to help you solve your problem but it seems to me that you dont want to fix that problem.Fault like that greyish colour in the compressor sight glass and not sure what it is and some one be on threre before you.the first thing you need to do is to clean the system and drain the oil.Talk to your customer also before attempting to do any repair tell them the cost etc.5% tolerence of mineral oil and poe.

[ronaldo9]

Was having a really bad day, if im being honest ironmen your probably right, i didnt want to fix that problem, not for that guy anyway. im normally very patient with customers but this guy really got up my nose. Usually when you go to a site people are glad to see you, they have a problem and they need you to fix it.
The first day i got to the site i need some crates moved to get access to the side of the unit (i knew this was where the problem was) he kept me waiting for 40mins before he came down to show him which crates i needed to be moved. After that i waited for 2 hours before anyone even started moving anything.I had no oil or oil pump with me so there wasnt anything else i could have been working on. Then it was lunch time and i would have to wait another hour for the guy to finish moving the crates. Like i say im very patient but this was ridiculous. What would you guys have done????
So i told him i had to leave, i couldnt wait any longer. It was Monday so i told him i wouldnt be back till Wednesday and to have the crates moved.
On Tuesday i was working on a site and it looked as if i wouldnt be finished and i would have to finish it the next day, the day i was meant to go back. So i rang him to let him know, the only way i could describe him on the phone was ignorant. he said this problem had been going on for a week and "this wasnt good enough". I saw RED. i "expalined" that we had only found out about the problem very late the previous Friday, i was there first thing Monday morning. Apartly his own guy had been trying to fix the system for a week previous to that and got nowhere. So he was so ****ing eager to get the system fixed that he wouldnt move those crates.

So what i did was i worked late on Tuesday evening (till 9pm) and was on site at 7am Wednesday morning. The crates were moved it took me an hour to dismantle the side of the unit fix the problem, put it back together and run the system. However on the tuesday he had his own guy working on the system, he had left a magnetic coil on the EEV with the compressor turned off overnight,,WHY??? So i explained what i had done to fix the problem, i had to repeat myself 5 times because he didnt believe me that it was that simple. he rang me 15mins after i left to ask me to explain it again !!So after all that **** now i had to convince him that there were more serious underlying issues. Again he wouldnt believe me, he just kept saying there was an oil change done two weeks ago. So it wasnt so much the fact that i didnt want to fix his problem, it was more so he didnt want me to fix his problem.

I know that was a bit long winded but im just making the point that even with the current economic climate some people are not worth dealing with . We have customers that we deal with on a daily basis and we do our best to make sure all their systems are running at their best. I had never worked for this company before and there was no chance of any follow up work, would you go the extra mile for this guy? Let me know what you guys think.
Finally i think i might owe ironmen an apology, Sorry mate.

[monkey spanners]

I have been accused of being a bit flipant before

me "it need this and that doing"

Customer "i can't afford it/ don't want it done"

me "don't then"

Customer "will it work without it?"

me "no"

customer "but i need it for my business!"

me "have it fixed then"

Customer "but i don't want to have to spend"

me "don't then".....

This can go on for a bit

[coolstuf]

Good one Monkey Spanners

[Gingerair]

I also serve up an apology for presuming that Ronaldo9 was in ref to the perma-tan winker & not what is now obvious, the buck-toothed wonder..

Good new profile pic Ronny9

Monkey Spanners is right but a few customers i know want the work doing, but for nothing or next to nothing..

I just make sure that any recommendations are given to them in writing & that the person who makes the decisions see's it.. That way any blame for a breakdown sits firmly in their lap..

[ironmen]

That's alright mate. It happens... i sometimes get frustrated when i go on site and dealing with those difficult customers.

If i were you, i wouldn't fix the control problem until he fixes the mechanical problem first as you mention there were a couple of leaks. Here in Australia it's against the law to have a system running where the refrigerant is leaking. you could loose your licence.

This guy is a tight ass.... better luck next time. I have come across such customers before who wants everything for free.

I have done a quote for a guy, it's been 2 weeks now and every time he says adjust the cost, make it cheaper.

Maybe next time we'll have a better and enjoyable discussion on technical issues.

cheers