Altherma C02 HT unit?

[sinewave]

Frank & others, have any of you fitted one yet, and if so whats the feedback so far?

[sinewave]

[frank]

Hello Mate

I've quoted for 2 so far but unfortunately, no installation as yet.

I'm trying to get my hands on the technical manual but I don't think it's available.

From what I understand, it's a cascade system using R410a and R134a not Co2

I've also quoted for one of the new Hydrobox's that connect to a 3 pipe vrv but this isn't due out into the UK market just yet (January I'm told)

[sinewave]

Hi Frank,

So is the outdoor unit on 410a and the indoor on 134a?


Seems unusual?


The way the system works sounds good.

Is it generaly available yet in the UK?

Any idea on a price?


I'm just about to commit to using Oil for a few years more but could still yet be 'turned' if the price is right!

[frank]

No, the outdoor has 2 fridge circuits, a 2 stage cascade. one circuit uses R410a the other uses R134a. Not sure at this stage which one becomes the high side, enabling leaving water temps of 80C. Still waiting for the technical info.

How can you afford OIL??

[sinewave]

Hi Frank,

So are these units available right now?

If so whats the price like? (PM if you'd rather)

I can get a 45-58kW Grant Oil Condensing boiler for £1350 and a 300 litrs Twin Coil Tank for £900 so only £2250 all in.

Even at todays Oil prices that requires some serious payback to consider other options?

As U know the 'Will' is there but the sums don't seem to add up just now.

[frank]

As far as I'm aware, the high temp unit is available now. The add on unit for the vrv 3 pipe is due out in January.

Don't just look at the capital cost of the equipment. You need to work out the 'whole life cost'. What this means is - how much it will cost you, say, over a period of 10 years or how ever long you expect the equipment to last.

Add up the purchase cost, maintenance costs and fuel costs for the whole period. Obviously, the lesser amount of ££££'s is the one you should buy.

[Clk320_Greg]

What will the add-on to the VRV do?

[multisync]

As far as I'm aware, the high temp unit is available now. The add on unit for the vrv 3 pipe is due out in January.

Don't just look at the capital cost of the equipment. You need to work out the 'whole life cost'. What this means is - how much it will cost you, say, over a period of 10 years or how ever long you expect the equipment to last.

Add up the purchase cost, maintenance costs and fuel costs for the whole period. Obviously, the lesser amount of ££££'s is the one you should buy.

If you have either gas or oil then there is really only one choice.

What customers are not being told is their 8k system may drop a compressor in 4 years or so and they can kiss good bye to a couple of grand.

No boiler will cost that in repairs.These things should be avoided unless TINA

[multisync]

What will the add-on to the VRV do?

I would assume it's the same as the Mitsi , it gives a water heater option as part of the VRV circuit so recovers heat instead of discharging it via the condenser

[brunstar]

the high temperature unit has 2 refrigeration systems. The 410A ircuit is the condenser for the 134A circuits evaprator.
The outdoor unit has 1 compression system and the indoor has another.
A great solution for a direct replacement without changing the radiators.
The technical manuals are already out if you need them you can get them from the daikin extranet.
The vrv low temperature model can already be purchased and is in the sales manuals. You can do space heating and hot water with it which is a great selling point for your existing customers.

[Thermatech]

I commissioned a City Multi system with a PWFY-P100VM-E heat pump boiler in November.
It is connected to the BC box with refrigeration pipework the same as any other indoor unit.
It has small 134a compressor for cascade system , does about 12kw heating with flow temp up to 70 deg C.
This one started from cold at water cylinder temp of 19 deg C & within 2 hrs had heated up 2 large water cylinders to 55 deg C & a pumped secondary DHW circuit running around the building to a number of toilets , kitchin & staff room ect. The hot water at all the taps was too hot to hold your hand under the tap after 2hrs from complete cold start.

As most office buildings have year round cooling requirment this system provides almost free hot water from heat recovered from cooling operation of the other indoor units connected to the City Multi system.
Even if no indoor units are in cooling mode then the outdoor unit is still using free heat from the outside air.

So really consultants should be specifying this on every VRV / VRF project as cost effective energy efficient water heating & no requirment for gas boiler for the water heating or any need to install gas or gas meter to the building.

This type of heat pump application has great pottential as almost all buildings that have ac also need hot water.

[cool#9]

Hi
I've made some commissioning of the Altherma HT (cascade R410A+R134A) and also repaired some of them. If someone interesting of...
rgds
cool#9

[ginger prince]

ok altherma HT is a simple idea, its a vrv mini R410A outdoor unit with some electronics mods, tubed to an indoor unit which has a 410a to r134a cascade condenser. The r410a unit heats to about 50C, the r134a circuit all of which is in the indoor unit heats from 50c to 85c. the indoor unit is basically the indoor bit of the 410A circuit and both the indoor and outdoor of the 134A circuit. Its the most complicated system imaginable as its all very tightly squeezed in. I have installed and tested the system here in our offices, its simple to set up and works a treat but warning 85C water is savagely hot. ref the cost you are looking at 305 more than a normal altherma so nearly 3 x the price of a gas boiler. its a great system but is usually only used when a high hot water usage is required or when old Victorian rads need reusing. any questions send em in, i will try to help. Regards

the prince

[multisync]

ok altherma HT is a simple idea, its a vrv mini R410A outdoor unit with some electronics mods, tubed to an indoor unit which has a 410a to r134a cascade condenser. The r410a unit heats to about 50C, the r134a circuit all of which is in the indoor unit heats from 50c to 85c. the indoor unit is basically the indoor bit of the 410A circuit and both the indoor and outdoor of the 134A circuit. Its the most complicated system imaginable as its all very tightly squeezed in. I have installed and tested the system here in our offices, its simple to set up and works a treat but warning 85C water is savagely hot. ref the cost you are looking at 305 more than a normal altherma so nearly 3 x the price of a gas boiler. its a great system but is usually only used when a high hot water usage is required or when old Victorian rads need reusing. any questions send em in, i will try to help. Regards

the prince

Looks like a job for PT Barnum

[cool#9]

ok altherma HT is a simple idea, its a vrv mini R410A outdoor unit with some electronics mods, tubed to an indoor unit which has a 410a to r134a cascade condenser. The r410a unit heats to about 50C, the r134a circuit all of which is in the indoor unit heats from 50c to 85c. the indoor unit is basically the indoor bit of the 410A circuit and both the indoor and outdoor of the 134A circuit. Its the most complicated system imaginable as its all very tightly squeezed in. I have installed and tested the system here in our offices, its simple to set up and works a treat but warning 85C water is savagely hot. ref the cost you are looking at 305 more than a normal altherma so nearly 3 x the price of a gas boiler. its a great system but is usually only used when a high hot water usage is required or when old Victorian rads need reusing. any questions send em in, i will try to help. Regards

the prince

Very nice product indeed and sometimes the water outlet is as warm as the discharge pipe of the R134A compressor !