Daikin co2 VRV

[frank]

I went on the Daikin Service Checker web site today to download the latest software version. It was saying that the last version had a couple of glitches in the display on the CO2 VRV system!

Is this the future?

Anyone know anything? - Obi Wan?

[brunstar]

well i think it will only really be for specialised applications as the UK are not going to push it that much as there are limited techs to work on it and it has a crucial charge due to the evaporating temps of the CO2.
lower COP but better for the environment.
smaller pipe sizes again!

[Thermatech]

They have been showing it at trade shows last year as the first CO2 VRV.

Dont forget in Japan they have been making domestic air heat pump boilers running on CO2 for about 7 years or somthing like that. The big manufactures have sold millions of them in Japan home market.
So they have developed the technology for small heat pumps the next step is to scale up for VRV / VRF.

You can be sure the other manufacturers will be working on CO2 VRF systems also.

I think ultimately the green brigade will force the issue & the Japs have made a head start. They have about 10 year lead in small CO2 heat pump technology & are in a good possition to clean up because they bothered to do the R&D.

[Obi Wan]

I went on the Daikin Service Checker web site today to download the latest software version. It was saying that the last version had a couple of glitches in the display on the CO2 VRV system!

Is this the future?

Anyone know anything? - Obi Wan?

Hi Frank

Alas it is true. I have only see the info on New products for 2009, no data books as yet.

Future, Not sure may be its to just to keep the green lobby happy in other EU countries.

[Pol]

Hi,

Sanyo has a nice CO2 heat pump system available on the European Market.

Do you know when Daikin will have them available?

Best regards,

Pol

[Odd job]

Probably available for high heating demand applications in the UK as the efficiency on CO2 systems is pony. TEWI impact for the CO2 system is worse than the current R410a systems so no manufacturer worth it's salt will make a big song and dance about having system available as it's worse for the environment in the long run.

[frank]

Hi Odd Job

As we don't appear to have any information on this kit yet, I find it difficult to understand your thinking.

Are you familiar with VRV operating on CO2?

Regards

[multisync]

With the pressures would all the pipework will need to be done by coded welders?

[sinewave]

With the pressures would all the pipework will need to be done by coded welders?

Hmmmm, good point that Multisync!

[Thermatech]

We all made the upgrade from R22 to R407c which runs at higher pressure

then

we made the upgrade to from R407c to R410a.
R410a run at even higher pressure.

Then when we all get used to the R410a & 30+ bar pressure then we can all move on again to even higher pressure refrigerant.

We had many engineers who only knew about R12 & R22 make many negative comments about the new high pressure refrigerants back in the 80's & 90's
but
now every split & VRF system is R410a.

At some stage we will all have to get qualified for CO2 refrigerant also.

Perhaps if i live long enough I can tell young engineers about the good old days when we had R11 & R12 & R22.

But in the new GREEN world perhaps admitting that will not be so prudent ?

[Pol]

Tell us more, Odd Job! There's hardly any information on CO2 systems on the market today, so please tell us what your above statement is based on?

Pol

[nike123]

thermea: The large scale high temperature heat pump with carbon dioxide for industrial applications is exhibited as an innovation incomparable to other products currently available on the market, the German manufacturer thermea Energiesysteme claims. It offers its model with a nominal heating capacity of 500-4,000 kW able to produce water at 90°C. Ranges from 20 to 40 kW can be delivered on request. Models with a water outlet temperature of 130°C to 150°C are in preparation. The Coefficient of Performance is at 4.5.

http://www.r744.com/article.print.php?Id=806

[Odd job]

Hi Odd Job

As we don't appear to have any information on this kit yet, I find it difficult to understand your thinking.

Are you familiar with VRV operating on CO2?

Regards

I wouldn't say i'm familiar with it! I don't think anyone in Europe is. There are CO2 Fridge packs available, EER of 2, COP of 3. High heating capacity, as you are probably aware from the amount of heat that's generated by Eco-Cute systems to get 90 degree C water for Sanitary use, so from a commercial point of view, manufacturers may well not want to sell it on the basis of cooling, even though it's a refrigerant. Until Nike123 posted that quote I believed the highest efficiency off of a CO2 system was around 3.2 in heating ...

Compare this with the current range of R410a VRV/VRF systems, EER's of 4.2, COP's of around 4.8. Take into account the lifetime operation hours, carbon usage, impact of manufacturing the refrigerant and then disposing of it at the end of it's life cycle and CO2 starts looking increasingly like it needs a serious amount of R&D before anyone can contemplate it being on an equal par let alone a replacement for current R410a systems ...

As Brunstar says, who can actually install one of these systems? I think I read in RAC magazine that WR refrigeration (I think, don't quote me ...) have set up a CO2 training rig, obvoiusly looking to the future.

Multisync, haven't the faintest idea about how the pipework will be sealed ... or what the pipework would be made of, Stainless? Copper? Magic hollowed out pixie bones?

Has anyone tried speaking to Daikin about it?

[frank]

Has anyone tried speaking to Daikin about it?

Don't need to mate....

Obi Wan has all the latest Daikin information at his fingertips, so to speak , and he posted that he has only heard about it so far......

I'm sure that when further details of the systems or a UK launch date is imminent, Obi will keep us informed.

[nicolacozma]

Hello,


I heard that Daikin will launch this year a new heat pump working with CO2. Heating capacity is 14 kW and COP is 4.1 at 5deg outdoor temp and 75deg LWT/ 30deg RWT.
Of course at lower outdoor temperature also COP will slightly decrese.


Regards,
Nicola

[Jorgen Bargsteen Moller]

Some comments:
The Daikin VRV CO2 is a combined cooling or heating unit. Refrigeration capacity 28.5 kW and heating capacity 31.4 kW.
It is a multisplit system with one outdoor unit and a number of indoor units.
Don't forget that the compressor is a two-stage compressor with intercooler thereby increasing efficiency.
This is the latest in Japanese CO2 technology.
As one mentioned domestic hot water heat pumps has been available for some years and the following CO2 transcritical units are also in production in Japan: Window units, bottle coolers and vending machines (more than 100.000 vending machines already).
Regards Jorgen

[DL A/C]

what sort of operating pressures are we talking about here, compared to R410a???

[Jorgen Bargsteen Moller]

The Max Working Pressuer is 120 to 140 bar.
Regards jorgen

[sinewave]

The Max Working Pressuer is 120 to 140 bar.

Hmmmm, I wonder what the governments H&S Exec will make of pressure testing procedures for these systems in occupied premises?

[Jorgen Bargsteen Moller]

Don't forget it is EU regulations you shall follow, it means:
1. In accordance with PED or Pressure Equipment Directive
2. Pressure vessels has to be pressure tested to 1.43 x MWP.
3. The compleated system to 1.1 x MWP.
The MWP can of course differ in a system devided into sections with different safety relief valve settings.
Regards Jorgen