Installer v Service engineers

[steve_k]

On this forum it seams everybody is a hvac guru

if you have read my other thread you will know i am not an ac engineer, just a plumber having a go at a few split units

been in the trade for over 25 years, I have worked with, worked for and employed AC companies, and most of there installers would have to hang there head in shame on this forum, don't get me wrong there workmanship is excellent (well most) but if there was a problem with the unit they would just get the relevant service engineer out,

same with plumbers and modern boilers,

Have i got this completely wrong? are you all gurus? or are there some installation engineers out there keeping quiet so as not to rise suspicion?

[icecube51]

yo Steve K, as in every branch of work there are categories and so do the refrigeration business. we have the teaching class, developing class, calculating class, selling class, installing class, service and problem solving class. each one have to find out for him self where he fits in the best, and try to do the best he can in his field. even if he is only trying to improve himself he can be an important link in his one field.

Ice

[Tycho]

yo Steve K, as in every branch of work there are categories and so do the refrigeration business. we have the teaching class, developing class, calculating class, selling class, installing class, service and problem solving class. each one have to find out for him self where he fits in the best, and try to do the best he can in his field. even if he is only trying to improve himself he can be an important link in his one field.

Ice

In other words we are all guru's in our own field

[750 Valve]

If you asked our service crew to install a supermarket you'd be in a bit of strife, just like when you ask our install crew to fix that dairy case that's on alarm.

At the end of the day people usually choose which they prefer and try to do the best they can at that particular sector (I say usually - some blokes are just really sh!t at what they do and should probably leave the trade but most people take some sort of pride in their work).

[Obi Wan]

yo Steve K, as in every branch of work there are categories and so do the refrigeration business. we have the teaching class, developing class, calculating class, selling class, installing class, service and problem solving class. each one have to find out for him self where he fits in the best, and try to do the best he can in his field. even if he is only trying to improve himself he can be an important link in his one field.

Ice

I’m still trying to figure out what I am good at.

[boy]

steve k,

what do you mean with such statement?could not really understand?i"m also ref and a/c man with same length years of experience such as yours and still learning.feeling off these days?

[paul_h]

On this forum it seams everybody is a hvac guru

if you have read my other thread you will know i am not an ac engineer, just a plumber having a go at a few split units

been in the trade for over 25 years, I have worked with, worked for and employed AC companies, and most of there installers would have to hang there head in shame on this forum, don't get me wrong there workmanship is excellent (well most) but if there was a problem with the unit they would just get the relevant service engineer out,

same with plumbers and modern boilers,

Have i got this completely wrong? are you all gurus? or are there some installation engineers out there keeping quiet so as not to rise suspicion?

There's a lot on RE that do both, as installers in the UK need to fix the stuff they install.
I myself am just a service tech for smaller stuff, I can't stand installs and never worked for a company that did many of them.
I've probably only done 20 in my life, as my posting history probably shows, I'm a bit lost with installs.
I can fix almost anything though
In australia, you're only an installer or only a service tech as far as split systems as they have a 5 year warranty that's honoured by manufacturers service centres. So installers are mainly people that don't have to worry about ever repairing them unless they are using cheap gear with no service centre or daikin (daikin are only sold to authorised dealers, if you are installing it, you are the service centre).

A lot of the installers here (edit: in australia) are plumbers and sparkies that don't know much about refrigeration in general as far as the smaller domestic market goes so will never be able to repair a unit.
Even the bigger a/c & refrigeration companies that do the large domestic/small commercial stuff (edit: split air cons that is) don't bother about learning much of the repair side, they just install, then after the 5 yr warranty offered by someone else, they recommend replacement when it breaks.
It's changing slowly though because a lot of brands are only offering 1 yr warranty for commercial use so some are becoming just as good at repair than they are at installs.
It will be a long time before we get to UK standards though, not enough refrig tradespeople in the install game in the first place to have enough people that know what they are doing as far as service and install.
Thats because the smaller side of the market is mainly plumbers and sparkies here and the refrig people aren't interested in installing for long. Better commercial/industrial work enviroments for a refrig tech to ply their trade.
I'm only in the small refrig market for the easy jobs, as soon as I get enough work I can stop taking the crap work and installs.
It's dirty work, lower paid, ridiculous unsafe/stupid mounting positions wanted by customers, and the big one: can't get an electrical license without a full time apprenticeship so it's not worth being an installer if you are a refrig tech here, you have to pay a sparky more to wire it up than what you earn for installing the unit after your material costs, if you can find a good sparkie that can get there within two weeks that is.

edit: eg, I might earn $200 after costs for putting a unit in, sparkie earns $250-300 after their costs. Or they can do a short course, or do what you are doing, and earn $450 for each install they do, without a refrig person even needed. That's why there's so few refrig techs here installing or who know how to repair split units.

[p_p]

How times are changing

Refrigeration/Air Conditioning/Service/Install are all the same to me, as i,m sure they are to alot of you out there who are time served and had the good fortune to work for companies who work on a vast range of a/c and fridge, install and service.
However over the last few years it has somehow got divided into 4 disciplines with engineers concentrating on 1 and not interested in learning the others.

Any thoughts anyone!

Regards

PP

[steve_k]

Technology has increased 10 fold over the last decade, probably much more, an electronics engineer is probably more at home in new systems,
how many chinese imports are on the market?

btm line is, its just too much effort for most to keep up to date, the service techs need to, but installation hasn't changed much, so the gap widens

[superswill]

for me there shouldn't be a divide just more understanding to one another's particular field and a willing to learn it,at my present company i commission our VRV installs,carry out service calls and maintenance and every now and then go bang a few systems in myself as iam sure alot of people on here do,our installs boys would quake in there boots at a comm's room call in the early hours just as i would at running 100 meters of 1 1/8th pipe on a retro fit in fitting the system, so i think gone of the days where we get on the phone to the gaffa and say "thats installs job" or "thats service" and start learning the younger lads to be multi skilled as our trade is

[Grizzly]

What a brilliant thread Steve.
I suspect that you have gauged the forum perfectly.
If anyone say to me "you will", "I want", etc.
Or the worst "I "have fixed that problem" back at the office.
When earlier they have been on to you or your colleagues asking "what do you think?"
The shutters come down and I don't want to Know!
I totally agree with everyone.
Basically It's all about attitude I suppose!
The simplest answer is the engineer that realises He can't possible know it all.
Stands a chance, where as the one that does is going to run out of friends.
Personally I love to learn "new tricks of the trade".
Which is why I like the forum so much.
So from me anyway Steve it's not so much what you ask!
As how you ask it!
Oh! By the way I reckon it's not so much what you know nowadays as to who you know to ask!
The subject is getting to big but try telling that to the girls in the office.
When they act surprised when you reply that you would like a manual for the Strange unit.
That they think your magic wand will sort.
Cheers Steve.

[hyperion]

Quite agree that there shouldn't be a divide but, as has been said earlier the install guys are usually happy to work all of the hours possible to get the next install completed, but are not very keen to turn out to a breakdown.
I like many others started in the trade many years ago and was expected to turn my hand to everything.
It is quite concerning that if there is an operational problem with a new installation, unless it is fairly simple most of the install guys will leave it for someone else to diagnose. Sort of a "Catch 22" situation, but that would appear to be the current method.
However I would be the first to admit that faced with an installation now, it would get completed but probably not in the limited hours that would be commercially viable.
So perhaps it is just a case of "horses for courses".
Sourcing spoares for slightly obscure makes seem to take up most of my time nowadays, but that is part of the challenge of "our trade".

[ausmartin1]

I hear you Paul,
I'm not a tech, more of one that calls on services of profesionals like yourselves.
Unfortunetly I have seen many good techs in Australia over 10 years ago some with brilliant soultions to the strangest problems, but now the new crop is down right disapointing due to lack of pride / knowledge in their craft. I've had an ev valve replaced at home on a multisplit, the first one sealed up one of the pipes! Now the second one seems to have incorrectly charged it so the other unit is freezing up, the mess the damage / crappy workmanship -routing wires ability to put the out door cover back on correctly screw missing just makes me all really sad.....
I still remember a few years back you would describe the fault, point the way to the factory office roof, the job would be done honestly - 100% perfect and even extra things would be done with pride. I still hope there are some good techs out there in Australia to show the next generation how things should be done right. All the best Martin.