Refrigeration Guild

What would you want in a draft Refrigeration Guild?

1. Set minimum rate pay structure for apprentices, engineer, technicians etc.
2. Provisional apprentices that can only remain untrained for 1 year then the employer must enrolled them on a training course. (This will force employers to train young people up to a standard useful for the industry)
3. If they do not pass this then the apprentice can't work unsupervised until successful
4. If a company has no qualified engineers then they must only take on qualified engineers to replace or expand the company unless they enroll at least one engineer on a course.
5. If a company has no qualified engineers then they must start training and have at least one qualified engineer within 6 years or be dropped from the guild
6.Companies that all engineers are fully trained can display the fact.

Training is only one aspect of what I would want to see in a guild worth being a part of.

7. Refrigeration courses should involve electrical installation to a level that would be expectable for installations back to the distribution board (this would help to claw back some ground lost to electricians who beat us to that part of the legislation)

I think the above will help to get the respect the industry deserves by an active training program without barring companies overnight from the guild due lack of skills

8.A minimum hourly charge out rate.

The idea of my post here is for it to be thought provoking about what you would want from a guild to improve the industry. If we don't talk about it now we may just have one dumped on us that helps only the few. If we come up with good ideas then this could be put forward when the time comes

The comments above may be tweaked deleted or added too. I think this thread needs a category of it's own under self-regulation or something and then broken down into sub threads of Training, legal requirements etc. Thrashing out each component from all perspectives until it can be to signed off into the draft.

Don't be negative about things if it can be improved say how. If don't work suggest something that might.

A nice idea Andy but I don't see it being able to wield the amount of weight that you are suggesting.

Unless there is a legal requirment what is the incentive for a firm to belong to it?

In this back biting trade the people who belong will be undercut by the non-members.

I know this all sounds cynical but that's me I'm afraid.:(

I know what you are saying, but the idea here is not to create a guild with no strength from this but to find out what the industry would need if legislation would be enforced. If you just leave it up to governments to implement legislation then don't complain about the results.

Which came first, legal requirement or corgi?
Who influenced whom?

Hi guys,

I too like the idea of some common practices. I'm not sure I agree with the guild idea, but the rest seems very reasonable.

I think Brian has the main point of the problem identified. The solution has to have some "teeth" based on legal requirements.

My suggestion is to have a legal requirement for both HVAC and Refrigeration licenses. The licenses could be arranged in the following order:

1) Apprentice
2) Journeyman (sorry I know that's not politically correct:D )
3) Masters

Any registered firm (preferably the owner or principle of the firm) would need to have the Masters license to verify all work is performed up to standards.

Any journeyman could work alone with an apprentice acting as a helper.

Any apprentice would have to be supervised by someone higher up the food chain.

Anyone applying for a business license as a HVAC or Refrigeration firm would have to have these qualifications to do legitimate work.

Of course to get these licenses the person would have to go through the training as suggested by Andy.

Those that do not have the registrations or cannot pass the test... Sorry.

If this becomes part of the legal requirements then you do level the playing field. At that point, almost everyone will have to be charging similar prices because no one with the Masters or journeyman's license will work for peanuts.

We had something like this in a city where I used to live. It worked for the most part with regular firms, but there was always the occasional person who charged less, disregarded the legals aspects, and did whatever they wanted. They did not stay around for long as the low priced selling tactics proved out to be counter-productive.:D

This part I really like:

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If we don't talk about it now we may just have one dumped on us that helps only the few. If we come up with good ideas then this could be put forward when the time comes.

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My only additional thought is don't wait for someone else to begin this because if it does, it will either be started by someone with a vested interest or, someone who knows very little about our business.

Abe should get involved in this also. He has mentioned a similar topic in the recent past.

It's a fact of life that change is brought about by a vested interest. These would probably be the owner or principle of the firms. They are not going to agree with something that will bar them selves over night. This is why I feel it is important to have a phase in period to allow all companies to comply with expected standards. In this interim period any company that are taking on this extra cost to comply with future legislation should be allowed to advertise the fact. Under the eventual governing body name /logo. This will give warning signs that change is coming and to get on board before it is to late. Yes prices may rise for the customer. They may feel this is just another way to monopolize them. But at the moment it seem to me that the large supermarkets etc. have been throwing the bones out for firms to fight over for to long. Even the supermarkets are getting a bad deal on quality of service as the industry slowly runs dry of skilled engineers who move into better paid industries. And no new skilled coming in as companies have been cutting training to cut costs.

Every one of us in the industry has a vested interest from the customer, engineer to the refrigeration firm director.

Everyone must agree change is required so lets make happen in a positive way

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Originally Posted by Andy T

But at the moment it seem to me that the large supermarkets etc. have been throwing the bones out for firms to fight over for to long. Even the supermarkets are getting a bad deal on quality of service as the industry slowly runs dry of skilled engineers who move into better paid industries. And no new skilled coming in as companies have been cutting training to cut costs.

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Let the market decide.:mad: But I also agree with everything you say.

I believe Tesco has a department solely dedicated to driving down prices, and that department deals with any contracts, be it to supply rolls of cling film or refrigeration.

However, no fridge company is going to add costs to their company unless forced to by legislation and this applies to any trade. Their first reaction seems to be to cut costs by using cheaper labour.

If REFCOM was such a good idea, membership would be high, yet REFCOM members seem very few and far between despite signing up to responsible usage of refrigerants, (and a responsibility that often goes further to the qualifty of their work in general).

The next issue is training. If we have no skilled trades people, who will train the next generation? If the returns are poor in the industry, the same applies to service sectors supplying that industry. Equipment suppliers have moved in to fill some gaps realising that poor service impacts negatively on their image.

What you describe applies to a wide range of skilled service trades, and the response of most is to try and use semi-skilled staff to carry out routine work as well as "dumb down" the equipment spec.

It seems that any really tricky problems are left to an increasingly small number of specialists who are flying around from one end of the country to the other. They may move on as much due to the type of workload rather than financial benfits.

I have the experience but I don't want to be out at all hours, driving all over, and not know from one day to the next what time I start work and what time I might finish. I might earn as much as double what I am on now, but it will cost me my health and my family. No contest.

Steve

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Originally Posted by Andy T

I know what you are saying, but the idea here is not to create a guild with no strength from this but to find out what the industry would need if legislation would be enforced. If you just leave it up to governments to implement legislation then don't complain about the results.

Which came first, legal requirement or corgi?
Who influenced whom?

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Andy

The best way forward for us is with Corgi
Corgi now has within its umbrella, Gas, Electrical, and two others which I cant recall.

It needs another two , AC and Ref

Corgi has the infrastructure, the experience plus its recognisable

In July this year I am researching the complete set up how our industry regulates itself. ( UK only)

Based on this research it will be opportune to evaluate where we are and the best way forward.

What is paramount is that our industry needs some form of cohesion and representability.

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Originally Posted by Abe

Andy

The best way forward for us is with Corgi
Corgi now has within its umbrella, Gas, Electrical, and two others which I cant recall.

It needs another two , AC and Ref

Corgi has the infrastructure, the experience plus its recognisable

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Ask plumbers if they think CORGI is a good idea. More than a few seem to think CORGI rake in a lot of money, more than seems to be needed for a non-profit making organisation. Many are packing in plumbing or electrical trades because of being undercut constantly on priced work, and the increasing huge piles of paperwork they return to at the end of a day.

Many will risk using unlicenced labour because they know they stand a very good chance of getting away with it. HSE never seem to get out of bed unless someone dies or the bang is so big it wakes up half the country.

Steve

I understand what you say Steve, however, Corgi has become synonymous with gas accreditation.

When ever a gas fitter is specified, the first question asked is: Are you Corgi registered?

Again as an example . I will ask the question ,which came first a legal requirement or Corgi?
What did the electrical industry do to bring about change.We need to do the same.Follow the plan but just change the name.

Im not sure about how Corgi started. but I know about the Electrical side. Well Part P

A Member of Parliament, her daughter died tragically, touched the cooker hood which was live, faulty electrical work by installer. Kitchen installer.

This prompted the new legislation, or requirement. I am assuming Corgi was based on similar scenario,. i will try and find out

:eek: lets not follow their example then. Lets go do it before some one gets killed.If we wait till then it will get rushed and messed up.

As I have suggested, I will undertake my research in the near future. I am tied up for the next three weeks or so, so cannot achieve much at present.

But will endeavour soon after that

Abe