Will I never learn???

You should think I would "know" about these things..........but Im like a hapless kid on this one.

A butcher needs a condensing unit for his walk in, I give him a price, he agrees and I do the job.

After several visits to collect money I track him down. He now says he has no money. What do I do?? I say Im taking out my condensing unit, he says I cannot. its on his property.

Do I take court proceeedings immediately? This takes a long time by which time he will have upped and gone. ( One of his workers mentioned they were moving and taking the compressor with them)

Do I go to my local police station and tell them Im going in to retrieve my compressor and would they mind coming with me. I think they will refuse citing its not police business.

Do I get 4 big lads and we go in and take it out

Please advise

Aiyub,

Its up to you to decide, if the guy is a genuinely straight trader who is having a hard time and is short of cash, then take it to court. However this guy seems"well dodgy" and is intending to clear off with your kit, irrespective of how the law sees it this to me is theft. I'd be surprised if the Police would want to get involved, so I know what I would do, at least you could get some money back on reselling that unit.

All my current customers pay on completion, if its a large (For me) job then I also insist on a 30% deposit. My answers to being asked for thirty days credit are

OK I'll come back in thirty days and do the job!
OH! so you can't afford me then?
No Sir, I do air conditioning but I can give you the adress of Barclays Bank, they do credit.

It doesn't win me any freinds sometimes and my attitude does mean that I will always be one man and his dog (untill one of us dies) working on mainly small splits and automotive, but we give good service, show a decent profit and are owed by none.

The customers that I do have tend to pass my name on.



:)

Aiyub:)
it's not a nice position to be in, I have one customer who would be a little cash poor, but somtimes when he has it he still acts it up.
On one occasion I sat in his reception for 4hrs until checks were forthcomming, basically I shamed him into paying.
I would make a guy such as this my pet project, any spare time I had I would be at his door looking for the money, I would write to him at least once a week, when I was finished with him he would be glad to pay:mad:
Find out his home address and appear at it as often as possible, if he complains ring the police and say your fear there's going to be a breach of the peace, you may find them more willing as under law they must prevent a breach of the peace.
Failing that appear at his home with a few mates and he may see the errors of his ways.
Regards. Andy.

Hmmm....it seems to me that if someone ordered and received a product or service, then refused to pay for it, the police should arrest the perpetrator and charge them with fraud.

The customer definately would be defrauding the contractor.

I serviced 2 reach in coolers about a month ago. I told the guy that the total was $475.00 (which is about 2/3 the going rate for servicing 2 coolers). He scoffed and said "I know how much you paid for the *****. I'm not going to pay you that much". The customer then paid me what he though the jobs were worth - $300.00.

I hear this is a VERY common problem. There are so many cheaters here in the US to ruin it for the rest of us - the news media even say NOT to pay repairmen anything up front until the job is completely done!

Well, he paid me what it cost me to do the job, and nothing for my labor (about 3 day's worth).

I wrote on the receipt that the customer owed $475.00, paid $300.00, and the balance due was $175.00. I also wrote on the receipt as-is, no warranty.

Here in the US, in most political jurisdictions (maybe except Texas), you have to take the customer to court and HOPE you can collect what's owed.

Perhaps that's why there are so many companies changing over to LLC (Limited Liability Corporation) - so they can cheat othes from what is due them.........


Zolar

I know exactly what you are saying Abe - I had one of our "ethnic" friends do exactly the same and in the end he only paid what he thought the job was worth.

I do not do any more work now for our "ethnic" friends as this has happened several times.!

If you can find his close family and tell them of the situation or even the local mosque about him the "shame" within their own community is nearly always enough to get him to pay up.

Failling that go around with the heavies and reclaim what is yours as they do not like violence and they are all talk!

Frank

hi all :)

It seems that it is the time of the year that all the no-pay customers come out of the wood work, being that it seems to be a major topic of discussion lately.

I keep updated a "sh*t list" of no-pay previous customers. The no-payers operate in a merry-go-round fashion, and after stiffing you, they move on to stiff someone else. Then, about a year later you will hear back from them. I never forget, however. You only steal from me once.

As far as the "ethnic" aspects of these conversations, yes there is a cultural aspect to the transaction in many cases. The Asian cultures, I have learned to differentiate from in regard to how business is conducted. The Korean (compared to the Chinese and Japanese businessmen) and Indian (compared to the Pakistani or turkish business person), I get along with very well.

A very frugal Korean lady that I did business with for a very long time used to dependably haggle over the bill (for repairs in her small grocery store). Whenever time came to total it up, and ask for the check I would always add thirty minutes to the ticket for the anticipated discussions regarding the expense. Usually I would accommodate her in some discount in consideration of the fact that she never failed to write a check, nor did she ever complain about any service that I provided her.

One day, after having decided that I no longer wished to engage her (because I had other things to do), I decided to change my approach. She said, "Mawk, $600.00?... that's too much."

I replied, "On (her name), well how much should it be?"

She was absolutely dumb founded, and didn't know what to say. She asked, "What do you mean?".

I said, "How much do you want to pay? Just tell me."

Still dumb-founded she said, "I don't know." I told her that she must have some idea of how much it is worth to her and if she wished to, she could just write the check for whatever she wanted to pay!!!

She wrote the check for the entire amount!! LOL!!!

She said, "Okay, I'll pay the bill, but next time take care of me, okay."

On the other hand, my white American "brother", for which operates a high tech stainless steel chemical transport tubing manufacturing business which calls on me about once a year to service the cooling equipment for his polishing presses (usually after he has entirely butchered the equipment whilst tinkering with it himself) called upon me last month.

He had relocated his entire shop, and inorder to save a buck, had attempted to disconnect, relocate and reconnect three or four of his 5hp refrigeration units that serve his polishers. Sightglasses moisture indicators were "Yellow", flare connections loose, systems with little or no refrigerant. I had a man spend 2-1/2 days pressure testing, repairing leaks, changing out driers, recharging and troubleshooting electronic controllers to get himn back up and going. If these refrigeration units are inoperative, it would not only destroy his product, but the $1,000,000.00 machines that they serve.

Having dealt with these guys over the past seven years, I knew that the griping about the bill would be the last part of the job. As always, when it's time to "wrap it up", everyone is to busy to sign the bill (or won't) and the guy that should handle the transaction is gone. As I anticipated, I got a recorded message from the jerk, asking to discuss the billing. I was glad that I wasn't available to talk to him. I sent him a statement in the mail!

Apparently after he got the statement, he called again. This time I answered the phone. He started complaining about how much labor was charged. My blood started to boil. I told him, "Hold on, sir... hold on." He became quiet. I told him, "Look, I have been doing your service for years, and I always get this phone call." Then I told him to "Just write a check and put it in the mail" (because I really didn't want to waste my time with this guy).

He asked, "What do you mean?", I iterated, "Just write a check, whatever you want, and put it in the mail! Whatever you think it is worth!". As usual there was the silence. He said, "Well, if I do will that affect any future service?, I don't want to jeapordize any future service request that I may make of you". I again said, "Look, just put a check in the mail."

Bewildered, he said, "Well, I didn't expect this. I thought that we would have some discussion about it and some negotiation". I reminded him once again that I anticipated this phone call before I even sent a man out, that this is business as usual for (you people), that furthermore you have never been satisfied with the bill, ever. "So again, just put a check in the mail..... thank you very much".

The cheap bast*rd took about 15% off of the $1,500.00.....

I will never go out there again.... He's on my sh*t list!!! :)

Matter is not solved................yet,

Whilst I was hanging around the shop waiting for him to turn up I see a scrap piece of paper lying by his telephone. I recognise the name, a fellow engineer

Now why would he be wanting to ring another engineer ??? Me thinks

So I quickly jot down the number and after returning to base after yet another fruitless exercise trying to extract "my money"
I give this engineer a call

He tells me he was there that afternoon, being primed about getting some work, he says boss man not there, but hes going back to see what he has in mind

I says, Did you see that shiny new Le Unite condensing unit humming away sweeetly?

Yes................he says

I says, well I just put it in, and havent been paid for it

He says................What ????

Now this engineer is a good guy..............he believes in the brotherhood

So when this robbing swine who doesnt pay me phones the other engineer he gets a mouthful from him.

Shopman is now left HIGH and DRY

I got it................Im going to alert every engineer working in this locality about the antics of this crook. We may be competitors but we can also cooperate and work together in some aspects

I also thought of putting up a little notice at the trade counter, so other enginners can be warned.

So when other engineer messes up the crooks plans, he now thinks, ****, my plans are going awry

So he sweetly calls me.............."can I pay you in installments? starting from next month ?

I shrug my shoulders............
I say, what you think.............Im a bloody bank??

But I must add............There are good and bad in all societies
Fortunately, most people despite their quirks are good , bad ones are a minority, thank god

So lets not become sceptical about everyone. Some customers may be awkward..........but there not bad, there are some who want to squeeze you, secret is knowing how to screw them without them even knowing it, and letting them feel they have had you.

I know we fridge guys are a highly articulate lot, did anyone tell us we also.............eventually become trained psychologist as well!!!

Adios

hi Abe :)

You're right, I didn't help you much with my long-winded story.

In regard to your brother tradesman, that's pretty much how (I) operate here. I will call my friend servicers, and ask if there is any previous experience. When I get a cold call, the first thing I consider is... "What is the problem with this fellow, that the guy that has been servicing him for 20 years will not respond?" (if that is the case).

Mind you, that on your side of the POND, the legal structure may be different. Does the fellow serve alchohol which requires some special licensing and stringent regulations? For instance, I had a bar owner that was consistently going over 90 days on me. Upon the last round, I had just about had it... I got his liquor license number, and drew up a demand letter, referencing one of the possible actions as a complaint to the Alchololic Beverage Commission!!!!

Here in the U.S., if you recall history and the prohibition thingy, you can end up in serious trouble for not operating your business ethically, if you deal in alchohol.

Boy, did I get paid fast, in full. Mind you that I put him on the **** list, and if he did ever call me again, I'd tell him where to go.

Particular to any industry that the customer is involved in (any special licensing), you may familiarize yourself with the licensing requirements, and the licensing department, and add it to your repotoire in your collections letters.

For me personally....... I'd just assume write the guy off, and spend my time generating good business (of course after offering to allow him to pay what he thought it was worth, maybe). Dealing with a deadbeat is two-fold.... He's rips you off.. then further adds injury to the illness by distracting you from your good and potentially good customers! Of course that would depend on the extent of the loss... up to $2,000.00, it's almost not worth my time.

The most important thing for you to do in this situation, is not let it happen again (.... i.e. the sh*t list). Write his name down and post it in your office where the public (and your technicians) can see it. You'll have a customer come in and inquire as to what the "list" is. Let 'em know.

I tell my techs, that if they ever respond to an ex-customer on the sh*t list, they're fired!

But anyway... I'm rambling on again...

1.) Minimize your losses - If you have shamed the guy into offering anything..... DO IT! Get a down payment, and hope for more.. It sounds like you've gotten a good start! (but as above, never go it again - the sh*t list thingy)

2.) Never forget, and slander him (tell the truth) every chance that you get. Soon enough, word will get around that you don't deal with crooks, and only the people who are sincerely interested in your service will call on you (thin out the herd, so to speak).

3.) When you send a "Demand For Payment Letter" (In the US, or Texas, there is a legal responsibility on the part of the debtor to respond to a demand for payment within like, 10 days), Include a draft of any document (such as a property lein, in my case) to add weight to your threat. I have a Mechanics lein form on file, that I just fill in the blanks and run it through the printer twice, with "DRAFT ONLY" superceded over the document. Of course I have researched and written the legal description of the ownership and location of the property.

4.) The wife of the previous owner of the business that I now own, once sat in the office of a prominent business (that was reluctant or slow to pay) , dressed as poor as the oldest ragged clothes she could find in her closet. She commented and complained (in a south Texas, poor farmer's drawl) to every one of the business' customers that walked in the door, that (the company) would not pay her. ..... They got paid.


5.) Yes!!!!! we are all on the same side of the fence... you and me! We may be in the same feild of service, but each of us has a different type service and quality to offer. Some customers Desire the, do it cheap and easy job (and some shops are good at it), while others are on the hunt for getting it done (a different way). There's enough of the pie to go around for everyone! Talk to your "Brother's" and straighten the market out!

The whole "brother" thing is a graet concept, sounds union actually. Anyway, in my area unfortunately but true, the refrigeration companies don't like each other. It's strange, in heating/A.C. there is plenty of work to go around and everybody is happy, but for some reason refrigeration is much more cut throat.

I think the word 'union' isn't quite the right choice here...

Maybe the word 'cooperative' would be a better choice?

Too bad all the contractors can't get together and force the governments to change the laws so we can get paid immediately, and without having to go to court.

It sure would simplify things.

Or maybe arrest those who order services and don't pay and charge them with fraud? That would immediately put a screeching halt to most of the deadbeats out there.
After all, isn't what they are doing fraudulent?

Zolar

Good thread! I'll offer just three thoughts.

1) Customers will have as much respect for you as you do for yourself. Never be bashful about the quality of your work or the need for immediate payment.

2) Short story... A good friend who was having problems with a particular restaurant paying slowly took her 6 month old and his fully loaded diapers with her to collect. She plunked Patrick down on the counter next to the cash registers and said, "Please, won't you pay us the money you owe us!" He was never late with her or with me again, ever.

3) You can develop a good relationship with the other contractors. The better you all get along the stronger you all will be. When you get a call from a new commercial account (always a suspicious event) call the nearest supply house and ask what contractor has been doing their work. They probably know. Then call that contractor and find out if they've gotten paid. Tell them exactly what is going on. Knowledge removes ignorance.
Trust builds from sharing information and simple dialogue. My fiercest competitor saw me one day many years ago and put his hand on my shoulder. He said, "Bruce, I think you know just what I'm doing and I believe I know just what you're doing. That's all fine with me. What really scares me is what our customers are doing."

Hey bhrobin,

My wife is from El Dorado :D

Zolar

Hi abe,

How's it going with the "Butcher"?

A little more insight, perhaps......

I've got the local pub that is 75% paid on the emergency beer cooler (walk-in) compressor replacement.

I have been twisting (his) arm for 6 weeks. The fellow and his employees are kind, and to be honest, I am a customer that frequents his goegraphically historic place of business when out-of-town family comes to visit (located near the state history museum).

The last payment (check) I extracted from him bounced! by the time it was returned, I verified funds and it was good, and I ran it through again, no problem.

Today, hitting him up for the last $400.00, I told his manager (he wasn't available) -

"I don't want to back you into a corner, and make you write a bad check, because I know how it feels.... NOT to have the money.... because I ain't got none either!!!!!"..... Anyway, I proceeded to explain that I thought they might have had a good "SuperBowl Weekend", and perhaps could take care of the rest of the bill........... yadayadayada...... (anyway, it turned out they were closed for the "big Game"... no wonder he doesn't have any cash! :rolleyes: )

It's like getting Blood from a stone.... If he doesn't have the cash there's nothing available to remit. It's one thing if you can't even extract a check, but when the check is offered in earnest and it's no good.... the guy obviously feels some obligation, right?

:(

go for the payment plan.... he has expressed some sense of obligation to you.

What's the status?

Maybe I should make a couple of web pages so people can post the 'dead-beats', how much is owed, date, etc for all the contractors to reference?

I could make it for each state, and if given enough time, each locality.

What's everybody think?

We've tossed that idea around quite a bit, here. No One's had the fortitude to follow through on it though.

:)

Mark

I rang around, every refrigeration engineer I think he would call, bingo , the first one I called had a call out from him to go take the motor out and relocate it someplace else.

So, wiser, he declined, so did the others, so customer has no engineers now. Now I know the value of keeping good with all my fellow refrigeration engineers

Then I went there with three burly fellows. I tell him my compressor is not paid for, I have legal ownership, Im taking it out and suing him for damages.

He breaks out in a smile............." My freind............he calls out as I head with a serious frame towards the walk in......

I see a wad of notes being pulled out of his back pocket as he furiously starts counting.........

I turn back and grab the wad being offered

I place it in my back pocket and head out of the door...............and his life

What Ive learnt...............

Now, I DONT do the job and ask for money later
Now, I take 50 % up front, I say I need the money to buy the parts
When, I finish the job I want my money
If, he does a dissapearing act, I disable the unit until I get the money.
And if I dont get paid the balance, well at least the parts are paid off for

Never leave a job with your gear in and money owing, unless you have a special relationship and know the customer

Treat all Newby customers with caution, Start the way you intend to continue

I am lucky, 75% of my customers dont give me trouble
The other 25% , Im learning to be smarter then them, Im learning...........very fast