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Hi Everyone
At my place of work (industrial plant)we are currently brazing 1in copper tubing as part of the HVAC system however the client is asking us to write up a brazing procedure and have it qualified to ASME IX.
Is this also a requirement of Ashrae and if so how do I test a 1in test pipe and are there any brazing procedures out there
Your help is appreciated
Delboy
As far as I'm aware this code requires a trained approved welder. Courses are available to gain this accreditation.
I would suggest that this code applies to welding not brazing or soldering -so I would get confirmation and if correct tell him it's not applicable.
Refrigeration pipework (excluding pipes carrying ammonia or CO2 etc ) usually don't require anything other than 'good refrigeration practice' and as such nitrogen purging and OFN pressure testing would be deemed sufficient.
If it's secondary refrigeratnt then ask a plumber what his codes are...
Cheers
Richard
If the system is subject to PED, then either the braize would have to be done by an approved engineer or the work approved by the notified body.;)
i thought that all our work was subject to PED?:cool: I was informed by the irish IOR that it would be mandatory soon with retestiing every 3 years:eek:
Did the test last week, have sweaty palms awaiting results!!
Al
Thanks for the reply guys.
The client states beacause the HVAC system is under pressure then we have to meet the pressure code requirements and therefore test our brazing and welders to ASME IX.
Unless Ashrae state otherwise then I have to qualify the joint.
We have never qualified brazed joints in the past especially when brazing copper refrigerant pipes in the region of 1in
Delboy
I think what you will find is the requirement for a qualified brazing procedure (much like a weld procedure). The filler metal and joint position are part of the procedure.
The person doing the brazing will have to be qualified for the procedure and I believe they should also stamp the brazed joint with a symbol or initials to show traceability for the joint.
This is all covered under section IV I believe.
The person doing the brazing may also have to perform some test joints, which are then tested for penetration and joint quality. Destructive testing may also occur on the test samples.
Are you / is the job in the UK? If so then Ashrae is not applicable.Quote:
The client states beacause the HVAC system is under pressure then we have to meet the pressure code requirements and therefore test our brazing and welders to ASME IX.
Unless Ashrae state otherwise then I have to qualify the joint.
The UK comes under EN378 and the PED regs.
Do a Google for the PED regs, this should define the UK requirements for you.
Here's an extract . the full wording can be found here http://europa.eu.int/comm/enterprise....html#aI.3.1.2
3. MANUFACTURING
3.1. Manufacturing procedures
The manufacturer must ensure the competent execution of the provisions set out at the design stage by applying the appropriate techniques and relevant procedures, especially with a view to the aspects set out below.
3.1.1. Preparation of the component parts
Preparation of the component parts (e.g. forming and chamfering) must not give rise to defects or cracks or changes in the mechanical characteristics likely to be detrimental to the safety of the pressure equipment. (See Guidelines: 5/3,6/14,6/3)
3.1.2. Permanent joining
Permanent joints and adjacent zones must be free of any surface or internal defects detrimental to the safety of the equipment.
The properties of permanent joints must meet the minimum properties specified for the materials to be joined unless other relevant property values are specifically taken into account in the design calculations.
For pressure equipment, permanent joining of components which contribute to the pressure resistance of equipment and components which are directly attached to them must be carried out by suitably qualified personnel according to suitable operating procedures.
For pressure equipment in categories II, III and IV, operating procedures and personnel must be approved by a competent third party which, at the manufacturer's discretion, may be:
- a notified body,
- a third-party organization recognized by a Member State as provided for in Article 13.
To carry out these approvals the third party must perform examinations and tests as set out in the appropriate harmonized standards or equivalent examinations and tests or must have them performed. (See Guidelines: 3/15,6/1,6/10,6/11,6/12,6/14,6/3,6/4,6/5,6/8,7/10,7/25)
3.1.3. Non-destructive tests
For pressure equipment, non-destructive tests of permanent joints must be carried out by suitable qualified personnel. For pressure be approved by a third-party organization recognized by a Member State pursuant to Article 13. (See Guidelines: 6/13,6/5,6/7,7/25)
3.1.4. Heat treatment
Where there is a risk that the manufacturing process will change the material properties to an extent which would impair the safety of the pressure equipment, suitable heat treatment must be applied at the appropriate stage of manufacture.
3.1.5. Traceability
Suitable procedures must be established and maintained for identifying the material making up the components of the equipment which contribute to pressure resistance by suitable means from receipt, through production, up to the final test of the manufactured pressure equipment. (See Guidelines: 7/10)
Quote:
Originally Posted by frank
Frank is absolutely right. The PED is law in all EU countries, and applies to all pressure equipment within its scope, unless you can demonstrate that is it intended for permanent export to a third country. (i.e. Non EU or EFTA). Not all refrigeration equipment is within the scope of the Directive. You must comply with the PED in the EU, if that is where the equipment is used, by law. However, if your client insists on ASHRAE / ASME in addition, as part of his contract and is prepared to pay for it, that?s a contractual matter between your company and the client. They have no official technical standing as standards outside their country of origin.
The PED is very complex and not easy to understand, so you may consider that the immediate things to ask are:
- Is the prime equipment inside the scope of the PED? Not all equipment is if its components are below category 1 as defined in the Directive.
- What?s in the pipe?
- How big it is? (Because a 25mm tube would be outside the scope of the PED pipe work limits, UNLESS it connects directly to a piece of equipment that is within the scope of the PED).
There is a brazing methodology produced by the British Refrigeration Association (BRA) and the only one that I am aware of in this country that is specific for refrigeration purposes. However good as it is, it is not harmonised to the PED (in other words it is not recognised for compliance with that Directive?s essential requirements) so you can only use it for the type of equipment that falls outside the scope of the PED that I mentioned, referred to as Standard Engineering Practice (SEP).
.
________
Hermosillo Stamping & Assembly
Your comments are very helpful indeed.
For further information the construction site is in West Africa.
The piping is for refrigerant only and we as a company have never been asked to qualify a joint in the past.
All pressure piping at site falls under B31.3 and ASME IX however I cannot see how this applies to HVAC equipment in this instance.
Welderuk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delboy
Your kit is in a third country so the PED doesn?t apply.
I guess that you will need to obtain a copy of the relevant standards and do what it says if it?s in the contract.
.
________
BMW R 51/3
ASME IX is what is desribed in PED as "local standards" what was commonly in place befrore PED. To my knowledge ASME IX is the only aceptable standard, widely recoginsed for brazing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Argus
What other people are doing is writing a brazing proceedure that complies with ASME IX and testing their brazers by an in house test using this proceedure. That is fine as long as a notifyable body is in place to aduit the proceedure and the tests.
If I was outside the EU I would do the same, bringing in a competent person to assess my proceedures.
Kind Regards. Andy:)
Hi, Kindly put few things about Qualified Joint, that is joint having Joint Clearance as 0.1 to 0.14 mm on diameter, with insertion length of almost 8 to 10 mm. Braze such joints & then qualify your oprators by checking joints for distructive tests. Inclusion of both this procedure shall make brazing procedure strong enough.
sumant mathure.
A lot of customers in the UK are requiring persons brazing refrigeration pipework to be certified to the CITB / BRA standard, this is usually a two day course ending in a written exam and practical test. This accreditation is also usually indicated on a technicians skill card.
Ian
for us, since we are working in gas plant.
we do subject to welding test/s by the client.
so far, we are to qualify '6G' welding if need to work on ammonia piping.
luckily, our client [another subsi to Linde] do issue welder certificate.