We all know Ammonia Kills Engineers. (Please read it may save someone!)

OK.
Everyone, myself included treats Ammonia with the respect it deserves.
However, that being said. Thankfully I cannot remember the last time I heard of a death occurring.

Sadly I was discussing a recent article published.
Which I haven't seen myself about 4 Engineers dieing in a basement full of R123.

To which myself and the 2 other very experienced engineers I was with.
Were chatting about the fact that ammonia, gas, fire, smoke and many other hazards.

Send signals to the brain saying, Alarm, Danger, get out etc. etc.
Whereas Many refrigeration gasses starve the brain of oxygen, creating a sense of euphoria.
Creating a sense of well being where ultimately you just keel over and die.

One of my colleagues then went on to recall his own experience of working in a cabinet.
Where adjusting an expansion valve in the bottom he became light headed.
Knowing what was happening he tried to straighten up to get out of the cabinet.

In his own words. "It was only for the fact that there was one of those tall mesh wheeled cages next to him. Which he was able to grab hold of that he was able to pull himself out of the cabinet!
By the time he had realized there was a problem he was to weak to straighten up normally."

This conversation got me thinking!
Are the guys out there being told of these incidents, so we can learn from them.

I have had lots of training over the years and i don't remember much ever being said about how ordinary refrigerant can GET YOU!
There are some exceedingly good trainers on this forum. Mind!

In summary I am hearing more about people having near misses with *****s etc. than Ammonia ever does.

So come on guys, Have you had a near miss?
(and I don't mean for some H&S numpty to justify his job)

I just like to learn from real experiences.


Or am I being perceived as being dramatic
thanks Grizzly

Totally agree with you, I have fainted once inside a big chiller that had a liquid r-22 leak, it simply pushes the air away.

From that reason, miners took down a Canary bird in a cage and if it died, they knew there was no fresh air at their feet.

I sure there are countless incidents that go unreported every day.
I've had a few moments myself over the years and have never touched ammonia. Thankfully alot of out work is outdoors or we would hear alot more horror stories.
All my incidents were in plant rooms. With the excepion of one where i took a good shot of liquid 22 into my mouth after a gasket on a llsv let go.
I certainly dont think.highlighting relevent safety concerns is being dramatic.
Whats that saying "complacancy breeds ignorance" or something along those lines or maybe i just made it up.
Good post Grizzly
Cheers
Stu

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stufus

With the exception of one where i took a good shot of liquid 22 into my mouth after a gasket on a llsv let go.
Stu

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OUCH!

That will explain the accent then Stu? :)

Thanks for the input Guys.
If I am correct, far to many don't understand how dangerous this job could or can be.

Steve.

I don't know how close a call I've had, but I've certainly had some unpleasant incidents with *****. Here in the states we are supposed to follow ASHRAE guidelines which require ***** detectors and evacuation fans for X pounds of refrigerant in Y square feet of space.

Not so much a refrigerant warning but a plant-room warning especially as a few here are also gas techs.

A buddy and I were working in a ground floor boiler room recently and he couldn't get his combustion analyser to zero out on CO, carbon monoxide.

His initial reading was around 150ppm and rising so knowing that his meter had been giving trouble recently I switched mine on and it gave it's first CO reading as 200ppm. The maximum safe time at that level is about 15 minutes.

We didn't have any boilers firing so were a bit bemused but decided that it was time to leave the plant-room.

As we walked through the door to outside we found a van parked about 20' away with a diesel driven piece of equipment running inside it and the side door open.

Attached to the engine adjacent to the exhaust outlet was a nice sign warning of toxic exhaust fumes and to ensure that the fumes could not enter nearby buildings etc. When we approached the van owner about it his comment was, "It's just an engine." and showed no concern whatsoever.

So be aware folks, there is often someone else out there trying to kill you off as well.

Good thread Grizzly.

One piece of advice all my guys get for free, zero your leak detector OUTSIDE, i had a very close call in an island freezer in the middle of a busy supermarket, had zeroed the meter too close to the cabinet, climbed in to start stripping, barely hauled myself out, caused great merriment to the shoppers :)

There was an explosion in south america (i think), propane leaking from a tank filled a basement, guy went leak testing with an electronic but turned it on in the basement, he left and a small while later the building went up.

al

Since you mention gas as well, A guy I used to work with was working on a gas water heater (which has a pilot light at the bottom inside). While he had got the pilot started on his tank, his apprentice was still bleeding air out through the pilot on the tank which was 3' from the first one. The gas went straight from one tank to the other and go BOOM. Apprentice lost his eye brows some skin and a lot of hair. Stank too.

Grizzly,
CO2 is another dangerous one as you don't know its there.

We are supposed to wear a oxygen monitor at all times for all above post reasons.

Usually a lot of people hide that they may have made a mistake, so tell no one due to
embarassment.
I don't think I could live with myself if you don't pass on this information & someone
died.

Hi Grizzly.
an excellent post and reminder for everyone.
One incident over here on a refrigerated cargo ship, R22 system, temp alarms in a hold, two engineers go down to see what was going on, no BA sets, DX system busted pipe, two dead engineers on the floor at bottom of ladder, really smashed up as had fallen from ladder unconscious.

Some serious stuff brought to light on this one !
We all tend to make light of our "close one's" but I don't think it's bravado on anyone's part or embarrassment , merely how we learned the trade and the attitude of "well no one got hurt"
We live in a much more controlled world now ,trackers in van's ,PDA'S for personnel ,lone worker alarms, environment monitors.
Excessive or necessary ?????, who decides ? the living? ,or the dead ?
I know which one I'd rather be......
Cheers
Stu

By the way Grizzly the 22 in the mouth has nothing to do with the accent ,but my teeth are very clean..:D

ive had a pressure relief valve blow off on a water cooled york, in a plant room whilst the customer was moaning- got rid of the mithering get, after various checks of the non return valve on the cond water pumps strainer, cooling tower pond level, there was a bin bag in the cooling tower restricting the flow!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by install monkey

ive had a pressure relief valve blow off on a water cooled york, in a plant room whilst the customer was moaning- got rid of the mithering get, after various checks of the non return valve on the cond water pumps strainer, cooling tower pond level, there was a bin bag in the cooling tower restricting the flow!

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That's why there is a government levy on plastic bags over here now ,they reckon if you have to pay for every plastic bag you use they are less likely to be cast aside and choke cows ,tie up swans and ducks and get stuck in cooling towers:o
Cheers
Stu

Hello guys
I cannot agree more with had been said in this thread , and living and working on ships most of my life, I have quite few near miss on my belt (not proud of them) due to the fact of the piping passing in confined spaces where there is no ventilation or air circulation at all, and learn in the hard way to always ventilate every space before entering it if the leak is detected there...

Griz
Good topic. I do have a story to tell that happens to me once.
I was in a shop that had a co2 chiller and the system was down for a very long weekend. The relief on the co2 storage was iced over and blowing out co2. After the system was restarted and the 3 way manifold was repositioned I had an alarm in my brain that nature called.. I had to use the rest room.
I asked the customer where the men's room was and he kindly pointed me to the beasement.
So j made my way to the basement and took a seat on the thrown.
I was sitting there when things became very slow and I felt very numb in the face then I realized I was inhaling co2 because I was in the lowest point of the building. I quickly got up and ran upstairs. Thank God I did. I think some people don't think including some techs I have met back in my days about fundamental basics of electricity and fluid mechanics refrigerants and what have you. But thank God I was thinking ... Clearly.... At the time.

Thanks for the post weagle.
I was talking to a guy recently who got to the numb lips and passed out.
He was dragged out of the cold room by staff who came looking for him.
Extremely lucky to be alive today.
If you got to the numb face sensation then you to were extremely lucky.
As I say a good post and worthy of rep points!
Grizzly

You scare me Grizzly, I prefer to end my life during sex......

Well a long time ago when SO2 was a common refrigerant we used gas masks as a matter of course.
Exposure to this extremely pungent and corrosive chemical produced difficult breathing and after effects that lasted days.
The nature of the substance made one careful so perhaps the nature of modern refrigerants induces complacency.
It would be very interesting if any contributers could post the levels of common refrigerants that might prove fatal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chemi-cool

You scare me Grizzly, I prefer to end my life during sex......

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So do we all, chemi, so do we all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by B G Scott

Well a long time ago when SO2 was a common refrigerant we used gas masks as a matter of course.
Exposure to this extremely pungent and corrosive chemical produced difficult breathing and after effects that lasted days.
The nature of the substance made one careful so perhaps the nature of modern refrigerants induces complacency.
It would be very interesting if any contributers could post the levels of common refrigerants that might prove fatal.

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It would be safe to say.. ALL of them,as the all displace the air we breathe.
How is it, that heavier than air refrigerants manage to work their way up and attack the ozone layer then??
Over 12 months ago, a store owner thought he would pressure clean the inside of his coldroom.. With a petrol driven pressure cleaner. Shut down and removed contents, left the door open but left the plastic curtain in place. Was lucky someone happened to check up on him and saw him on the floor.

A few years ago in a UK supermarket I had a discharge gasket rupture on a 502 plant. Like a numpty I tried to shut the plant down. It was a full blown loss with all the other comps running and pumping the gas out of the plant. The next thing I know I wake up in the back of an ambulance on oxygen and on the way to hospital. The store IST had heard the gas escaping and pulled me out of the plantroom. If he had not been around I would not be here today. If the same thing happend again I would just let it go as it was only a matter of a couple of minuets and I was unconcious. It was a very sobering expirience and it has made me more aware and .respectful of the equipment and components we use on a daily basis and not to take anything for granted.

I was recently told that there are more deaths from CFC's HCFC's than ammonia, however it is the manner in which the death is recorded that makes the difference. The autopsy will record death from asphyxiation in the cases of CFC's and HCFC's. This makes these deaths very difficult to trace statistically. There is also the added threat of cancer as all the CFC's and HCFC's are carcinogenic.

Good post Grizzly

and something we should all keep in mind

when I was in training with marshall thermo king

this was mentioned many times, as quite often leaks are in the back of trailors

I used to drink alot back then and always felt groggy all day

So when ever in the back looking for leaks, when I suddenly felt better

I knew the area of the leak and knew it was time to get out quick

So next time gents your doctor says to decrease the amount of liquor you consume

your gonna have to tell him you cant.. for health & safety reasons;)

R's chillerman