R22 retrofiting conclusions so far?

Hi Guys i have been reading the thread below posted by littleyaper.

this brings up a few topics.

leaks as stated by Grizzly and Coolconcerns directors at my F Gas 2079 course. if the present/previous CFC,HCFC and now HFC gasses did not leak as often as they presently do, and were made of durable components just like present industrial amonia systems, then we probably would not be faced with R22 phaseout. overall we as an industry failed to address the problems and governments stepped in with the aid of funds from the chemical gas companies, now F. Gas regs apply and chemical companies benefit from the sale of new gasses. yes hydrocarbons are great refrigerants, but i have seen several newspaper reports of exploding HC gas fridges. again a leak problem???

R400 series drop ins R417a R422a R422d R438a also known as isecon 9 series... see duponts web site.
has anyone realised that these gasses are made up from a blend of R125 and R134a typically combined to 95% of gas volume and a small percentage of hydrcarbon such as butane or propane to aid oil return.

as most of you will know R134a is not an efficient gas its specific heat capacity is poor so the compressor has to be bigger or work faster to circulate the same amount of duty as a more efficient gas, that has a higher specific heat capacity.
Europe is trying to ban R134a as a refrigerant in motor vehicle air con, no doubt the rest of the refrigeration industry will have to folow, again the chemical companies will prosper.

my company has undertaken several R22 retrofits we have encouraged the clients to replace the mineral oil to POE oil. these retrofits have to date been successful. however stories are filtering back to us from other companies that have left the mineral oil in the system and sufferd bad oil dilutuion problems resulting in a lack of oil pressure.

in addition good consideration needs to be given to new potential leak sources from 'O'seals and shaft seals.

in my opinion no manufacturer will make equipment to run on R417a R422a R422d or R438a. as these are less efficient than R404a on low temp or R410a on high temp/ or air con.

Co2 seems technicaly too challenging because of critical point being close to 25 degC.

why not ammonia central plant contained in an approriately designed plant room and glycol secondary refrigerant circulated in the field.

as we all know one size does not fit all,scrap all the old smaller stuff help china become the biggest smelting pot and remember your carbon footprint will shrink,global warming i still think the action we are taking is flawed.

I think Ammonia is great solution for large plant and sites where this is possible. I would like to see more of it. However I don't think this helps the smaller operator or commercial kitchen were central plant is not an option.

I too have had good results from R422d and R417a on some pretty big ( 300HP +) stuff previously converted from R502. I have also had some success on small plant. However with so much R22 Lit out there I see trouble ahead and at around £15.25 a kilo R22R is now the same price and R422 & R417. The customer is the one who suffers from this profiteering by Gas manufacturers :)

This came up when R12 and R502 were in the process of being banned. We went to a presentation made by Dean & Woods regarding the CFC's

These numbers are not exact but close enough..

75% of CFC were used in Aerosols
15% was used by insulation manufacturers

the rest was fridge and pcb manufacturing

The ban on aerosols and foam using cfc reduced venting by some 80%. in one tick of the box.Then Danfoss did a lot of research to find 70% of fridge leaks were capilaries. So they redesigned the joint..

From then they should have brought in a 2079 registration + CorgiFridge banned venting and they could have kept CFC's

However whilst lots here are trying to blame politicians and refrigerant manufacturers the banning of CFC and HFC and now 134a is down almost entirely to Greenpeace pressure groups lobbying and allowing false information and propaganda. They also worked very successfully on the newspapers always giving 'worst case scenarios' which the press -knowing bad news is good news- ran with it..Our industry was hit hardest because we did not have a strong central voice to combat the falsehoods. If we had embraced a Corgi type central body 20 years ago they would have -hopefully- fought our corner..

Sadly this opportunity of 2079 has been so badly botched by pretty much everybody involved another chance goes begging

Sometimes I wonder who is the idiot behind the decision of changing the refrigerants apart from DU****.

Life and work could have been so pleasant and instead of trying to guess what will be the next refrigerant like, we could have been discussing girls, cars, gadgets, food & drink.......:off topic:

Just daydreaming......

Quote:

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Originally Posted by multisync

This came up when R12 and R502 were in the process of being banned. We went to a presentation made by Dean & Woods regarding the CFC's

These numbers are not exact but close enough..

75% of CFC were used in Aerosols
15% was used by insulation manufacturers

the rest was fridge and pcb manufacturing

The ban on aerosols and foam using cfc reduced venting by some 80%. in one tick of the box.Then Danfoss did a lot of research to find 70% of fridge leaks were capilaries. So they redesigned the joint..

From then they should have brought in a 2079 registration + CorgiFridge banned venting and they could have kept CFC's

However whilst lots here are trying to blame politicians and refrigerant manufacturers the banning of CFC and HFC and now 134a is down almost entirely to Greenpeace pressure groups lobbying and allowing false information and propaganda. They also worked very successfully on the newspapers always giving 'worst case scenarios' which the press -knowing bad news is good news- ran with it..Our industry was hit hardest because we did not have a strong central voice to combat the falsehoods. If we had embraced a Corgi type central body 20 years ago they would have -hopefully- fought our corner..

Sadly this opportunity of 2079 has been so badly botched by pretty much everybody involved another chance goes begging

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You are dead right there 20 years to late:(