Tecumseh compressor strange problem

hi
i have 2 ton ac split unit
work since 2008
***** 22
yesterday the unit was working perfectly
it was cooling for 8 hours very well
in the morning i turned it on
and it was blowing hot air
i checked the outdor unit
2 of the compressor wires were melted and cut
i fixed them
then when i lifted the ac breaker
before i turn on the unit from the remote control
the compressor directly worked
for seconds with tough sound then turned off
then made the same sound for seconds then turned off
with sparks from he spade connection on it
i checked the amp draw at hat time and it was 130
amp
then stabled the 55 amp
then comp overloaded
i thought that i may connect the wires to the co0mpressor in correct
but made reading on the compressor ploes
the poles was un stable
and reading on start and run was too close to each other
im sure that the common poles is connected correctly because its cut during overload time

and i tried in shifting the start n run wires between start and run poles
with same result
i checked the motor insulation with body and it look ok
so what you advice me to do
the compressor page is
http://www.tecumseh.com/en/united-st...A?fromsearch=1

The compressor is most likely sized, it got a mechanical failure.
Add to that, it is also likely that when it went it welded the contractor/relay in the ON position.

:cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Viking

The compressor is most likely sized, it got a mechanical failure.


:cool:

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ok
can you advice me to do something
i have some option like connecting 2 capacitor
or opening the compressor from the outdoor unit and check and turn it on separetly

Quote:

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Add to that, it is also likely that when it went it welded the contractor/relay in the ON position.

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ok that explain the direct operation of the compressor

It's 15 years old, running on R22...

Replace the system?
The compressor itself will be beyond economical repair.

:cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Viking

It's 15 years old, running on R22...

Replace the system?
The compressor itself will be beyond economical repair.

:cool:

---

i think u mean 5 years

What is the compressor FLA?

If the contactor is in good shape and you want to test to see if the compressor is seized I would put a 3 in 1 starter on it. This will eliminate your starting components because they are built in to the device. Have the amp probe on the load wire to the compressor, turn it on, monitor the amperage. If the unit runs at the proper FLA the problem may be with your starting components. If you read 130 amps and then it cuts out, the compressor is seized. If it runs over its FLA and then cuts out, the compressor needs to be replaced.

http://www.supco.com/images/pdfs/AC%...%20Booklet.pdf

http://www.supco.com/images/pdfs/Ult...O%20Series.pdf

i think the compressor FLA is 21 or 21 i dont remember

If the FLA is 21 and you had the compressor run "stable" at 55 amps then you have a compressor that is about to seize up. You say that the unit was "running" properly the day before but I highly doubt it. Based on the info you provided I would speculate that the system is running outside its design limits. If you were to take some pressure and temperature readings I would expect to see a high discharge temperature and high suction superheat. Your oil is probably overheated causing poor lubrication. The compressor can still run in this state but you will start to see a higher and higher amperage. This higher amperage will cause the wires to overheat and melt if they are not rated for the load.

Sounds like you need to replace the compressor and determine what part of the system is causing the problem in the first place.


Read this -http://www.danfoss.com/NR/rdonlyres/.../FSN009web.pdf

Based off what is said you my friend have had a burn out, the compressor is past the point of any reasonable repair.

Procedure: Test oil for acids and contaminents. If non found in system, recover the R22 through a suction line filter drier into the recovery machin, set aside recovery unit and cylinder when don.

break vacuum with nitrogen to 1/2 psi, remove compressor and dispose of, flush system with Rx11 or isopropyle alcohol and then do a final blow out with nitrogen, dismantle and inspect txv at this time for any blockages, clean and oil txv and re-assemble, blow out and clean evap, assemble the txv and evap assemble and replace in plenum.

remove old filter drier fit new one, flush system with nitrogen, braze in new compressor, pull a 600 micron vac, hold for 10 minutes, break with nitrogen, let sit for 30 minutes, flush system with nitro gen then vac to 300 microns, hold for 30 minutes, break with fresh nitrogen and let stand 60 minutes, purg off the nitrogen then flush system with nitrogen, pull final vacuum down to 50 microns and hold for an hour this is to remove all traces of the iso alchohole and minimize fouling of the vac pump oil.

break vacuum with the R 22 and refill system as per origional charge after doing the leak check

replace the wires from the compressor to the contactor and start cap with new ones, replace contactor, replace breaker with new one. fully inspect all wirings for signs of damage from heat and replace as found.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by passandscore

If the FLA is 21 and you had the compressor run "stable" at 55 amps then you have a compressor that is about to seize up. You say that the unit was "running" properly the day before but I highly doubt it. Based on the info you provided I would speculate that the system is running outside its design limits. If you were to take some pressure and temperature readings I would expect to see a high discharge temperature and high suction superheat. Your oil is probably overheated causing poor lubrication. The compressor can still run in this state but you will start to see a higher and higher amperage. This higher amperage will cause the wires to overheat and melt if they are not rated for the load.

Sounds like you need to replace the compressor and determine what part of the system is causing the problem in the first place.


Read this -http://www.danfoss.com/NR/rdonlyres/.../FSN009web.pdf

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Compressors can go with no other issue in the system, especialy in places like he is where the average ambient is 40c! how ever, this is never a bad idea to give the system a good check over, how ever at this point his compressor is toast, the damage has been don.

hi i bought new compressor
Attachment 10592
its copland recip 30000 btu
but i didnt find what capacitor size will be enough for it
i tried 55 mf one

if its new then the start,run cap and relay would be in the box!!!:)

http://compressor-torg.ru/statya/cat...peland_kcl.pdf
page 11

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kefah

hi i bought new compressor
Attachment 10592
its copland recip 30000 btu
but i didnt find what capacitor size will be enough for it
i tried 55 mf one

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i got it only with its legs rubbers

is there rubber bungs in the stubbs- start to pull out the charging stubb- listen to see if its under a vac- give it a shake to see if u can hear oil

yes there wrer rubber bungs in the stubb
and there are under vac
and it have oil

one more thing
i turn on the compressor to test it
it throw a lot of oil through the discharge line
is that normal

Yes, that's why you don't run compressors unless connected to the system.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brian_UK

Yes, that's why you don't run compressors unless connected to the system.

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so is there any problem

here some technician say if the compressor capacitor is 55 mf
but your electric is not stable as example the voltage decrese from 220 volt to 200 or 190 or 182 volt
then replace the capacitor with one larger like 60 or 70 mf
what u say

today i turned the damaged compressor with separte power supply
and it start up with rumble sound and 130 amp
so
i opened he liquid and gas line connection to release the ***** to open the damaged compressor
here the condition of the *****
and there was saffocating smell similar to the smell of ***** when it heated by torch of ox acetylene

http://im31.gulfup.com/VXREs.jpg

http://im31.gulfup.com/AB7Gf.jpg

http://im31.gulfup.com/3K2fR.jpg

The smell of a burnt out compressor no doubt.

Frothy oil due to mixing with refrigerant.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brian_UK

The smell of a burnt out compressor no doubt.

Frothy oil due to mixing with refrigerant.

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thank u man
what about

Quote:

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here some technician say if the compressor capacitor is 55 mf
but your electric is not stable as example the voltage decrese from 220 volt to 200 or 190 or 182 volt
then replace the capacitor with one larger like 60 or 70 mf
what u say

---

Sorry, can't help with the capacitor question.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brian_UK

Yes, that's why you don't run compressors unless connected to the system.

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so is there any problem

because

Quote:

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one more thing
i turn on the compressor to test it
it throw a lot of oil through the discharge line
is that normal

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Kefah,

I agree with others that you have a burnout. Did you do as MG Pony suggested? (post #9)

lick ur fingers too do an acid test:o

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kefah

today i turned the damaged compressor with separte power supply
and it start up with rumble sound and 130 amp
so
i opened he liquid and gas line connection to release the ***** to open the damaged compressor
here the condition of the *****
and there was saffocating smell similar to the smell of ***** when it heated by torch of ox acetylene

http://im31.gulfup.com/VXREs.jpg

http://im31.gulfup.com/AB7Gf.jpg

http://im31.gulfup.com/3K2fR.jpg

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The MG Pony

Based off what is said you my friend have had a burn out, the compressor is past the point of any reasonable repair.

Procedure: Test oil for acids and contaminents. If non found in system, recover the R22 through a suction line filter drier into the recovery machin, set aside recovery unit and cylinder when don.

break vacuum with nitrogen to 1/2 psi, remove compressor and dispose of, flush system with Rx11 or isopropyle alcohol and then do a final blow out with nitrogen, dismantle and inspect txv at this time for any blockages, clean and oil txv and re-assemble, blow out and clean evap, assemble the txv and evap assemble and replace in plenum.

remove old filter drier fit new one, flush system with nitrogen, braze in new compressor, pull a 600 micron vac, hold for 10 minutes, break with nitrogen, let sit for 30 minutes, flush system with nitro gen then vac to 300 microns, hold for 30 minutes, break with fresh nitrogen and let stand 60 minutes, purg off the nitrogen then flush system with nitrogen, pull final vacuum down to 50 microns and hold for an hour this is to remove all traces of the iso alchohole and minimize fouling of the vac pump oil.

break vacuum with the R 22 and refill system as per origional charge after doing the leak check

replace the wires from the compressor to the contactor and start cap with new ones, replace contactor, replace breaker with new one. fully inspect all wirings for signs of damage from heat and replace as found.

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thank u very much for the detailed explain
here i don't have N2 or any acid away
so i separated both condenser and evaporator
then purged them with r22 liquid until they released all oil
then i replaced the filter
and welded all parts
now i will pressure the system with bad thing (air) for leaks then i will make vacuum for hours
then charge the system by weight

Quote:

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Originally Posted by install monkey

lick ur fingers too do an acid test:o

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hahahahahahahahaha :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kefah

thank u very much for the detailed explain
here i don't have N2 or any acid away
so i separated both condenser and evaporator
then purged them with r22 liquid until they released all oil
then i replaced the filter
and welded all parts
now i will pressure the system with bad thing (air) for leaks then i will make vacuum for hours
then charge the system by weight

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NOT the recommended procedure!

Purging with R-22! Why ask for professional advice if you are going to implement plumber techniques?

Replacing the drier and then pressurizing the system with air could lead to more problems! Try to find an inert (dry) gas for purging purposes.

Ok in the futur: Pump rubing alcohol through it as I sujested! the alcohol will clean the coil and de-oil it in a way you wouldn't belive! why waste valuable R-22 and why damage the earth when no need to!!

the rig I used was 5 gallon bucket, a simple pool style filter, a chemical rotory vane type pump and 8Liters of 99.89% pure isopropyle alcohol, I'd attatch that to my coil line set, by pass the txv while I stripped and cleaned the txv I let the alcohole pump till it ran clear. then I'd give the coil a final rins with virgin alcohol then blew it out with nitrogen, then just stream a steady light flow of air through it to finnish the job of geting the alcohol out.

Once coils have been clean re-attach blow with nitrogen, then set aside while you do other work, then follow the above discribed proceadure.

Air+oil+ pressure = good Boom!; Boom = bad -

if air is all you have better off just not leak checking with pressure, just hold your vacuum over night, not ideal in the least but better then what you are thinking!, air is fine for a dry oil free coil or even an oil free compressor, but not for an oil filled system!

you really must invest in some dry nitrogen if you wish to do the job properly and be gurenteed success.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by passandscore

What is the compressor FLA?

If the contactor is in good shape and you want to test to see if the compressor is seized I would put a 3 in 1 starter on it. This will eliminate your starting components because they are built in to the device. Have the amp probe on the load wire to the compressor, turn it on, monitor the amperage. If the unit runs at the proper FLA the problem may be with your starting components. If you read 130 amps and then it cuts out, the compressor is seized. If it runs over its FLA and then cuts out, the compressor needs to be replaced.

http://www.supco.com/images/pdfs/AC%...%20Booklet.pdf

http://www.supco.com/images/pdfs/Ult...O%20Series.pdf

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Hi.
A good link to some useful kit, provided that you are in the America's.
As the supply voltage is 110v and presumably 60hz?

Most of us are 240v 50hz sadly!
Grizzly

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Grizzly

Hi.
A good link to some useful kit, provided that you are in the America's.
As the supply voltage is 110v and presumably 60hz?

Most of us are 240v 50hz sadly!
Grizzly

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Good point! That is a factor I tend to overlook at times. I work with 110v & 240v @ 60hz.

yup that is standerd in our north american grid system, but global forum end up with wide range of fun things!

Same thing you must keep in mind when assisting in truble shooting as some places the norm for them is 40c ambients in summer or -40 winters! or in the artic where the fridges actualy just have a heater in them!

thank for your help
i really appreciate that from u
after purging the system with R22
I made vacuum for the system to 76 mmhg
then kept the system in vacuum for 24 hour
so i charged the system by weight
the weight given by the manufacturer is 2 kg
the modifying i made on the system was cutting 2.5 meter from the original pipes length which was 5 m
then i charged he system with only 1800 gm from the original weight
the amp reading in cooling mode
11.5
voltage 205 volt
suction pressure 68 psi

thank u all
please close thread