F Gas regulations - New qulaifications regulations published.
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A series of the final implementing regulations resulting from the F Gas regulations has been published in the Official Journal of the EU on April 3rd.
This last group is concerned with the details of training and certification of personnel who are working on F Gas equipment. This means that the requirements for training will be EU law 20 days after that date.
In short, this applies to everybody who works on any kind of refrigeration and air conditioning equipment, plus the companies who employ them.
There have been a lot of posts on this in recent months, plus features in the trade comics and the UK, plus the other EU states, will need to enact domestic regulations later when the final training protocols are worked out. A list of typical technical points to be qualified is covered is in the annex at the back.
It is probable that the existing C&G and CITB safe handling certificates may be revised and a new minimum set of qualification requirements put in place. The existing rules on ODS gases (R22 and the like) will be included in the new UK rules.
But, I stress, it is still early days and the details have to be worked out. Nothing is going to change tomorrow.
You can read all the differing regulations for F Gas training here:
http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/lex/JOH...92:SOM:EN:HTML
The Rules for RAC Equipment are here:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...03:0011:EN:PDF
Separate rules for MACs (Cars etc.) are here:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...25:0027:EN:PDF
Hope this helps.
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Re: F Gas regulations - New qulaifications regulations published.
Thank you once again Argus for keeping us informed and up to date. :)
Re: F Gas regulations - New qulaifications regulations published.
thankx argus for the post and links,very helpfull
Re: F Gas regulations - New qulaifications regulations published.
Nobody has some comments for me?
Re: F Gas regulations - New qulaifications regulations published.
There is a presentation next monday 3rd June at City & Guilds in London to explain the new 2079 refrigerant handling qualifications which are designed to meet the FGas regs. I am attending the meeting so will feedback to the forum when I get back.
Ian
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Re: F Gas regulations - New qulaifications regulations published.
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Thanks, Ian.
That would be very useful as I understand that it is a closed meeting for training providers only.
My understanding from DEFRA and BERR (sorry about this for members outside the UK, this bit is UK law only) is that the new training and competence protocols will be incorporated in a new refrigerants SI sometime next year that will also include the requirements to certify technicians and companies. I think that they will also seek to harmonise all the rules concerning ODS into a single document, but that may be too much like joined-up government. The new SI that was issued in February will probably be withdrawn.
It's worth pointing out that the need for a review of qualifications is for 'minimum requirements' only that can be transferable in the EU and satisfy the technical requirements in the F Gas regs. It will be interesting to see if the providers take this opportunity to beef up the remaining qualification routes.
Peter,
Somehow I missed your last long post asking about the effects of the F Gas laws in the UK - (being in France may have something to do with it). I'll give you my thoughts later when I have had a chance to think it through.
However there are certain issues in the F Gas regulations that are decided in EU member states at national level, for instance the methods of demonstration of competence for companies that have not been decided in the UK yet.
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Re: F Gas regulations - New qulaifications regulations published.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Peter_1
Argus,
RE friends,
I'm giving these days classes in one of the first Belgium sessions regarding the F-gas regulations.
This is not so easy for some reasons: there are some contradictions between EN378 and the partially translated Dutch version of it.
In the EN378, you have to pressurize the whole installation with a pressure equal or greater than the pressure that could occur on the installation while running or a standstill.
In the Dutch translation, we read 1.1 this max pressure.
Another problem, EN378 is only available in French, German, and English and must be translated. This will not be done before 2009 because lawyers must proofread first the translated text.
The old Dutch translation of 2000 isn't valid any longer.
According to the Belgium law, we may only use Dutch texts in the Dutch speaking part and we can not translate it ourself.
I have some questions for you:
This new directive states that the technician must be certified but also the company. What about the one man companies?
I also provide technical guidance on the Regulations, but I?m not sure I understand your questions, Peter.
If you are asking about the F Gas regulations, then the pressure testing in EN 378 Part 2 is not directly relevant to it. The pressure testing regime outlined in the standard is not required in the F Gas Regs. Instead it calls for a periodic leakage check 'of parts most likely to leak', which is a different thing altogether from pressure testing as described in EN 378.
The F Gas Regulations are a direct-acting law, not a Directive, and do not mention a standards compliance route, therefore standards like EN 378 cannot be harmonised to the F Gas Regs ? only the portion of the standard that are harmonised and apply to the PED apply.
I don?t know the situation in Belgium, but I understand that there is a language barrier between the parts. As far as European Directives are concerned, the requirements must be transposed or harmonised into the national laws in the EU states. So it is the responsibility of the governments in the member states to do this. How it is done is up to them, but the European Commission (in Brussels, ironically) can impose infraction fines for non-implementation of Directives. The UK regularly collects these, as do other governments from time to time.
In the regulations that I read, (the English version) the requirement is for technicians to be certified to do the tasks in the regulations.
There is a parallel requirement for companies to be certified to receive and onwardly transmit F Gases. If the One-Man company buys refrigerants as well as works on the equipment himself, it is my understanding that he must have both, as they are for two separate things.
I must stress that in the UK, we have not decided yet on the exact route for company compliance, and you will see from a previous post that the technician-training part of it is also still being discussed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Peter_1
What do they charge in the UK for a certification of a technician and what's the amount for a company (?<10 persons) ?
Here in Belgium, you pay 500 ? for the theoretical lesson (not obligated), 700 ? for the exams and +/- 1.000 ? for the certification of a company with less then 10 persons.
Do they have in the UK pre-made guidelines or complete files how small to very small companies can comply with this new regulation? Here you have to file a complete dossier, I can imagine that this is almost impossible to do yourself if you're a one man company and work already 14 hours a day.
Do they have solutions for this in the UK?
They are still considering the options in the UK. Details of fees will emerge later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Peter_1
Do they have in the UK pre-made guidelines or complete files how small to very small companies can comply with this new regulation? Here you have to file a complete dossier, I can imagine that this is almost impossible to do yourself if you're a one man company and work already 14 hours a day.
Do they have solutions for this in the UK?
Not yet.
I don?t understand why you need a dossier?
Dossier on what?
The equipment must have a service and leakage check log, but that is the responsibility of the operator or owner, even though it is the service company who will supply the information in it.
[/QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Peter_1
We also face the directive 842/2006 but also the new 303/2008.
Is there somewhere a database available of the questions they ask for the exams in the UK? Here you can download all the questions (+/- 150) for free from the internet.
Some of the actual Belgium questions are completely wrong and they're looking for more questions.
They are still deciding the training protocols, so no database of questions in the UK.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Peter_1
Is there a law which forbids you not to use a manifold on a HFK which was previously connected to a HCFK installation? Practical experience learned us that this doesn't harm the installation. I have +/- 10 systems running, some now +/- 10 years with mineral oil and working on R134a. We vacuumed the system in the past and replaced the R12 with r134a. None of these systems we changed this way - some from R502 to R404a - failed.
This was done mainly first as a test and the youngest - now also more then 5 years ago - were done this way because our clients didn't want to replace their so well running (!!) compressors from more then 20 years old. This way we hoped that they should fail in a short time and we then could replace these with new ones.
But they won't fail at all.
No, there isn?t, to my knowledge, it?s considered bad practice ? but a lot do it.
I hope that all this helps. I can?t really comment on the details of the technical questions on the Belgian database ? if they are dubious, best raise the point with the appropriate authorities.
The situation with the F Gas regulations is that there is still a lot of practical preparation work in the pipeline and the practical implementation may well differ in other EU member countries..
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Re: F Gas regulations - New qulaifications regulations published.
The situation with the F Gas regulations is that there is still a lot of practical preparation work in the pipeline and the practical implementation may well differ in other EU member countries..
Argus
I thought the idea was to have a standard approach across Europe. Strikes me its just another waste of time that will cost every body money and there will be no measurable benefit.
Ian :rolleyes:
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Re: F Gas regulations - New qulaifications regulations published.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pooh
I thought the idea was to have a standard approach across Europe. Strikes me its just another waste of time that will cost every body money and there will be no measurable benefit.
Ian :rolleyes:
That's because it is a political issue and civil servants are involved, what other outcome is possible ?
You do know the old one about the committee that designed the horse? They called it a camel.
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Re: F Gas regulations - New qulaifications regulations published.
Hello RE friends,
Everyone always hates the rules and guigelines of his own gouverment just like me but is the case of the F-gas i'm happy about my dutch gouverment.
And why is that you say?
Wel from 1997 we in the netherlands already had laws on this matter and every engineer and company had to be certified.
For example the leaktest, we alrady had to do that in periods of 1, 4 and 12 times a year. for us it's even less now with the new regulations, now it's 1, 2 and 4 times depending on volume of the refrigerant.
As for de certificates, we can just let our existing ones be changed to the new ones in the future.
This becuase from 1997 we already had to do theoretical and practical exam to get this certificate.
So in this matter i love my goverment.
Greets,
Bart.
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Re: F Gas regulations - New qulaifications regulations published.
Hi, first post here, be gentle with me :)
I've been looking at the f-gas regs, specifically trying to understand whether they apply to DIY / Quick Connect split air con units designed to be bought and installed by enthusiastic DIYers. Typically these come with less than 3kg refrigerant, with pre-gassed fixed length pipes and simply bolt together with no pressure testing, evacuating, dehydrating, charging etc required.
I have been given 2 contradictory opinions from suppliers as to whether the f-gas regs apply or not, so I went to look myself. Would appreciate your considered opinion.
This link is the f-gas regs I checked: COMMISSION REGULATION (EC) No 303/2008
eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2008:092:0003:0011:EN:PDF
Article 2 defines the scope:
Quote:
1. This Regulation shall apply to personnel carrying out the
following activities:
(a) leakage checking of applications containing 3 kg or more of
fluorinated greenhouse gases and of applications containing
6 kg or more of fluorinated greenhouse gases with hermetically
sealed systems, which are labelled as such;
(b) recovery;
(c) installation;
(d) maintenance or servicing.
Notice that the 3kg lower limit only applies to leakage checking, not to installation.
Article 3(1) defines Installation (my highlight):
Quote:
For the purposes of this Regulation the following definitions shall apply:
1. ?installation? means joining two or more pieces of equipment
or circuits containing or designed to contain fluorinated
greenhouse gas refrigerant, with a view to assembling a
system in the location where it will be operated, including
the action by which refrigerant conductors of a system are
joined together to complete a refrigerant circuit irrespective
of the need to charge the system after assembly;
I read that as including pre-charged quick connect types.
Put these 2 together and this applies to installation of any unit, even pre-charged units, with no 3kg lower limit.
Article 4(1) says:
Quote:
1. Personnel carrying out the activities referred to in
Article 2(1) shall hold a certificate...
It goes on to say, only a Category I certificate may carry out installations, which is the strictest category.
As I read that, it appears even the DIY Quick Connect stuff may only be installed by a certified installer.
Would you agree?
Ta,
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Re: F Gas regulations - New qulaifications regulations published.
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GeeCee, welcome to the forum and thanks for a well-constructed first post.
You've provided more of an observation than a question, but if it is a question, the answer in a word is - yes.
You have done all the reading and reached the answer that I would have suggested.
Under the terms of the definitions in 303/2008, DIY installations of all types involving the jointing of pipe-work are within the scope of the regulations requiring specific qualifications.
However, let's realise that this implementing regulation is very new (just a few months).
With the level of preparedness of the training industry in the UK at the moment, it has been suggested that it may take up to 3 years to prepare the necessary framework qualifications and put them in place for the entire refrigeration work force.
In the meantime, either of the two safe handling certificates may be considered as a transitional qualification.
These are mandatory now for all people working with refrigerant on both ODS and F Gas, but the current rules are not specific on the issue of DIY kit sold to and installed by the general public. These things are still widely available, but it's unlikely that Joe Public would have the required mandatory skills as they are understood and in place now.
Enforcement of the rules devolve to local authorities, so I await the first enforcement, with more interest than impatience.
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Re: F Gas regulations - New qulaifications regulations published.
GeeCee, same remark as Argus, nice first post.
Glad to have you on board.
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Re: F Gas regulations - New qulaifications regulations published.
Thanks guys.
The law is one thing but as you say, enforcement is a whole other issue. I can see in future the burden of proof being moved up the supply chain, i.e. you're not allowed to supply an aircon unit without checking certificates first.
However my sources also tell me that B&Q have just ordered 26,000 DIY Split Aircon units! So if we're right and it's against regs to fit them yourself, someone over at B&Q is going to have a bad day.
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Re: F Gas regulations - New qulaifications regulations published.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GeeCee
........ However my sources also tell me that B&Q have just ordered 26,000 DIY Split Aircon units! So if we're right and it's against regs to fit them yourself, someone over at B&Q is going to have a bad day.
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You mean 26,00 of these? :D :D :D
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Re: F Gas regulations - New qulaifications regulations published.
That looks like it. Actually they have them on diy.com search for: "Airforce Professional Wall Mounted Split Air Conditioner 17,000 BTU"
diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav/nav.jsp?action=detail&fh_secondid=9333250&fh_view_size=6&fh_location=%2f%2fcatalog01%2fen_GB&fh_sear ch=split+air+conditioning&fh_eds=%c3%9f&fh_refview=search&ts=1213962279202&isSearch=true
(Sorry forum won't allow me to post links yet)
Ah but it does say: "These units can only be fitted by a professional installer who holds a refrigerant handling certificate and is competent with such installations. They are not intended for DIY fitting."
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