Giving Away Our Secrets

[Brian_UK]

Firstly let me say that this is not a complaint against the rest of the world more one against the United Kingdom and it's Government.

I note quite a few questions coming from our foreign counterparts and quite rightly too.

If we do not ask questions then we do not learn, we do improve ourselves and the way that we live.

Here in the UK our manufacturing base is getting smaller and smaller due to high costs, Government taxation and red tape (form filling etc). The UK will shortly not be making anything that we the consumers want. The Government thinks that having a growing "service" industry is good news:mad:

We import vast amounts of consumer goods, refrigerators, cars, televisions etc. and why? because we don't make them any more.

We also have now equiries from our foreign (to the UK) members asking how this works or how that performs.

Should we answer them as best we can or do we ask if they are a manufacturer trying to pick our brains so that they can make something cheaper than ourselves and sell it back to us?

Any thoughts out there folks without getting too personal or is it just me getting old and cranky?

[LRAC]

Nothing wrong with being a grumpy old man BRIAN its not just our industry the same happened years ago mainly in the car industry.

China at the moment causes great concern to the whole of Europe with them copying our designs but making them cheaper, they are swollowing all the world resources and to top it no human or environmental issues to worry about.

But even worse than that we now get them to build our equipment under licence for UK manufacturers, to include Marstair and other companys. What do you think their doing with those designs, improving re modelling and selling under their own names.

But just you wait i'm not saying within the next fifty years or so but it will come back to the UK when we are a third world country.

I hate giving away design criteria or process information but they can get hold of it because were giving it too them anyway via our UK manufacturers.

Its not just you BRIAN we all think a like.

What goes around comes around( not sure when though)

Kind regards
LRAC

[Abby Normal]

I see some contributions here that do not originate in the UK

[monkey spanners]

I think its all a matter of perspective, you might think of yourself as english first, british second, european third, western fourth, global fifth.
I like to think if the need arose we'd all pull together and think of ourselves as global.
In my less stressed out times i like to think of myself as just some guy on planet earth. I dont think it makes a lot of differance in the big sceme of things who makes the stuff, just so long as we can all make a living, hopefully at something you enjoy doing.

Cheers Jon
(painting flowers on the van as you read:D )

[LRAC]

I dont think it makes a lot of differance in the big sceme of things who makes the stuff, just so long as we can all make a living, hopefully at something you enjoy doing.

You must be joking Monkey Spanners looking at your profile your 32 and a fridge engineer, you have 35 years left in the trade if you go to full retirement. Should refrigeration equipment go down the same line as air conditioning equipment your long hard earnt experience will be wasted. Fault codes will tell you wots wrong with the equipment and you'll be a parts replacement bloke.

The equipment will be pre charged and you'll be working for a plumbing/electrical firm, the equipment will be fit and forget and you'll be bored to tears.

B&Q will introduce cellar coolers, coldrooms and cabinets. And you and me will be working for them advising the DIY trade.

Sad but true, but at least we still have the corner shop culture.

Regards
Lrac

P.S this is not a dig at you Monkey Spanners just saying it as it appears.

[TSK]

Seems to me that alot of like minded people are jumping ship and going where the sun shines more and life is less stressful, we cannot change the course of this ship so if we do not like where its going better get on another with better prospects.

[LRAC]

Grumpy old man here with my favorite saying.

the last one out of the UK please turn the lights off

Sorry they have been turned off somebody in europe turned off the gas supply tap.

We couldn't afford the BILL
Lrac

[Tango]

Hi Brian,
its me again. Please allow me to add my 0.02d worth.
I'm also getting long in the tooth ;)
The other day I red an article from the Beeb about the electric light bulb & its demise. Low energy bulbs are the immediate future, while LED's were in the near future, bla-bla-bla.
So I sent the author of the article an @mail complementing him, with the exception that he failed to touch on the price of a lowenergy bulb made by Osram etc: that costs 6,7 & 8 €, while the same type of bulb made in the PRC I buy here in Portugal for 2 & 3 € a piece & in my house hold the European bulb is no gaurantee of extra logevity the extra €'s it cost.
I think it is enevitable that most manufacturing will circulate where the labour rates are more favourable or in the distant future we Europeans etc: will have to get our fingers out & have robots free us from the tyranny of manual labour. But again, if the robots are made & paid for at reasonable profit rates.
The bottom line is GREED & living beyond our means.
Before we fed of the colonies, the cream fed the masters in Europe etc: To an extent its pay back time.
Please! no flames.

Ciao!

[Abe]

I think what Brian was getting at is how eager we are at imparting our know how.

As an example, a guy posts on here , I want to test fridges.......

Thats all, one paltry sentence. We then start prodding and probing, turns out he is a manufacturer of domestic fridges and wants detailed specs on quality checks.

We start bending over backwards to tell him all we know.
Yes, I know this is a forum.
But.

What about intellectual property, knowledge acquired the hard way.

What about protecting your knowledge base?

How about we think of our economy

Cos in few years time, these products swamp our shores.

Like the way we gave away our car making skills
Our motor bike making skills

and biggest of all, we gave away our designs of the jet engine

So if some sorry looking individual poses a one liner, looking helpless.......

Dont think youre doing favours by spoon feeding and acting all charitable.

Cos thats the hand that will be bit !

On the other hand, there is a healthy exchange of information between proffessional enginners internationally. That is something totally different. All banding together for the common good.

Its the vultures we fear
:)

[monkey spanners]

When i finally quite my last job after my boss declined to have the brakes fixed on my van when it went in for a service (aparently i wasnt worth a set of pads:( ) I went gardening for two months at one of the colleges in oxford and apart from the money being poor and having nothing to fix it was ok.
I'd like to stay a fridge engineer until i retire but it wouldnt be the end of the world for me if i didnt.
Last year i fitted a cassette at night in a shop and the security gaurd who had recently come over from Nigeria told me how he had given up on his business there and come here when he was attacked with a machete for his days takings. He had a 3" diagonal scar on his forehead, how it hadnt split his head open i dont know. I dont begrudge people trying to improve theyre lot even if i get a little poorer as a result.
There will still be plenty of people worse off than me if even if i end up at B&Q selling laminate flooring, although i reallly hope it doesnt come to that:)

Cheers Jon
(my old boss did say i belonged up a tree!!!)

[Tango]

yah! its a dog eat dog world:eek: survival of the fittest & all that. But look where its taking us. Most of us are living in denial. Our American cousins think nothing of running their gas guzzlers, SUV, MTV's etc: etc: they dont seem to give a s_-t, they are to busy protecting their auto industries. The price of oil went down & the sales figures for these behmoths actually went up for the month of November.:confused: The lame excuse is they love their BIG cars etc: while we'll all have to pay the price of their excesses.
Yah! we sold out in so many sectors, I think there was a lack of innovation & investment. The Japs: took it forward, its normal. Civilizations get old & atrophy or re-invent them selves.
The chinese are on a roll & good luck to them, for to long their huddled masses had to eat grass.
In the end, if we humans keep to the same MO, this world will end up a husk, its all a question of time.

Thanks & be well.

Ciao.

[nh3wizard]

Well I have a few thoughts on this..... But they are probably better off unsaid... Dont want to offend anyone... Abe and brian UK are on my train of thought

[Andy]

Hi Guys:)
production will eventually go to the countries with the low labour cost:(

To keep in the refrigeration trade we need to keep inventing ourselves ahead.

HFC refrigerants are a thing of the past:eek: if you know what the replacement is let me know;)

Manufacturing in the UK is a thing of the past:eek:

Take a look at the jobs section in the forum there all looking for mid career engineers 5 to 10 years, we are not supposed to grow old at refrigeration;)

I would say stick at it while it lasts, but know when it's time to jump ship when something better comes along.

Kind Regards Andy:)

[Brian_UK]

Well, this one's warming up nice and quickly :)

[US Iceman]

Hey Brian,

It looks like you stepped on a raw nerve!!:)

I think there will be some continuing problems as manufacturing will continue to pass into low labor cost markets. It also seems that the countries where this labor market exist may also have less strict environmental requirements.

I am also not surprised that everytime a decent discussion gets started someone has to blame the US for every problem. Either we try to do too much or not enough. Everytime some one starts to sing a song, if we don't sing along with the rest, shame on us.:rolleyes:

Energy will continue to be a problem for those countries already developed. From what I've seen Europe is already at the mercy of mother Russia for the gas pipelines.

China and India are really starting to grow at record paces. This wil impact all of us.

I do not contest that we use a lot of energy. If anyone thinks the developing countries are going to be any different, I think you are in for a big surprise.

There are some serious problems for everyone to consider. I suspect knowledge may well be the last frontier that is harder to develop, rather than manufacturing. Most of you already recognize how long it takes to become a good refrigeration person in something as simple as supermarkets or cellars.

The trend will gravitate to split systems where the tubing is unwound and connected to the fittings just like split AC units, just because it's cheaper.

In most of the projects I've worked on in some of the developing countries we were told we had to supply full manufacturing drawings and calculations to prove our work. Two guesses what they were really wanted for.:(

It's going to get more of mess as this continues. As others have said, we should protect ourselves. if we don't do it, who will?

[verstep]

As far as my view is my concerned.

The industry in respect in asian has few originality to their products, searching new inventions in relation for the improvement. But each company like to exist, to maintain their status and their personnels. Why not trying to help one another sharing such problems in order to have lesser expenses because some maintenance firm are making money and not getting the right solution. This website is very helpful to me. Hope it will continue sharing ideas to develop the field of refrigeration

stephen

[Peter_1]

Brian, I just read your first post an it's just like Belgium you're describing:o
The only thing I can say on this is if we look in a table of production costs, then Belgium is ranked n°1 in the world, not an admirable place.

Heard the news about VW, the car factory here in Brussels?:( Same story as happened to Renault and Sabena (Belgium national airline company) 5 years ago.

[KayPoh]

Times & tides wait for no man. Stikes while the iron is hot.
By going into China you are taking advantage of the huge demands and at least you can enjoy the fruits for as long as possible. By holding back the 'secrets' you will most probably miss the opportunities. After sometimes, the 'secrets' may become history and nobody will want it anymore. We are living in a fast pace world.

[Renato RR]

If someone thinks that profit from Chinese factory stais in Chine he is wrong.Chinese worker works all day for 0,5$.Banks are in US and Europe,and if are in China the owner of profit is in Europe or US.If factory is in China the owner is in Europe.So I think that isnt so black.Let them chance to work and to have 0,5$/day:confused: is it to much?

Best regards,
Renato

[Brian_UK]

Firstly, US Iceman, I hear what you say; we on this side of the Atlantic pick on the US because it's a habit now I think ;)

If the information I heard a while back is true then we should really be moaning at the Australian Continent because they outstrip the US for energy consumption.

As Renato says the Chinese worker may not get paid very much in relation to us but I wonder how rates and prices will change in the future; not just in this trade either.

It can perhaps be likened to a retail trader like Wall-Mart (Asda) or Tesco, for example, who through using large stores slowly kill off the small trader and hence competition. Will the 'low prices' of the big stores start getting higher as there are no more competitors to affect the pricing levels?

When China, for example, has become the sole manufacturer of certain goods will the price start to climb as the worker realise their skills?

[winfred.dela]

I note quite a few questions coming from our foreign counterparts and quite rightly too.

If we do not ask questions then we do not learn, we do improve ourselves and the way that we live.


One of the main reason is the medium. Not a lot of us can express themselves well in English.

By reading one can learn a lot & asking the RIGHT question makes it a lot more faster.
Only, if somebody is giving the RIGHT ANSWER. :)



Here in the UK our manufacturing base is getting smaller and smaller due to high costs, Government taxation and red tape (form filling etc). The UK will shortly not be making anything that we the consumers want. The Government thinks that having a growing "service" industry is good news:mad:


Growing is always a good news. For us Filipinos, growing service industry have always been good.

Engineers to Dubai, Saudi, Kuwait, etc. . . even to Afghanistan.

Nurses to EU countries, U.S., Japan.

Domestic helpers to any part of the world.

Maybe its because we have no heavy industries to talk about.

One of the reason is that we have been a colony for so long (around 500+yrs by Spain & then around 50+yrs by U.S.) and still in a U.S. colony mindset until now . . . .

So in comparison UK citizen has a lot less to complain than Filipinos.



We also have now equiries from our foreign (to the UK) members asking how this works or how that performs.

Should we answer them as best we can or do we ask if they are a manufacturer trying to pick our brains so that they can make something cheaper than ourselves and sell it back to us?


I believe that asking something thru a forum is just an easy way for most. One can learn more by reading technical books that could be easily bought thru internet.

Of course, we answer not for the reason that the question comes from a manufacturer but for the reason that we wanted the nice FEELING after SHARING our thoughts . . . . :)




Any thoughts out there folks without getting too personal or is it just me getting old and cranky?

Maybe just GETTING OLD. . . . :D

. . .

[Brian_UK]

Of course, we answer not for the reason that the question comes from a manufacturer but for the reason that we wanted the nice FEELING after SHARING our thoughts . . . . :)I'll go along with that comment.

[US Iceman]

If the information I heard a while back is true then we should really be moaning at the Australian Continent because they outstrip the US for energy consumption.


I think the issue is the energy use due to growth, not necassariliy the country where it occurs. Without some common sense guidelines on maximum energy use per requirement (kW/Ton of cooling or COP for a given duty), the problem will jump from one country to the next.

As countries develop, they do so at breakneck pace. China is a good example. Energy consumption is rapidly rising and continues to do so, until they hit an energy crunch. When this happens, all of a sudden everyone will wake up and realize we have to do something different.

It's too little , too late. All of the infrastructure is in place at that time. And now someone says we have to do something. Not very cost effective.

The large developing countries will consume (or out consume) a large portion of the resources. That means there will be less for the rest of us.

I don't see this working out to have a happy ending.:(

I just think the problems needs to be addressed, not the country where the problem is currently under a microscope.

To add an even more grime facet to this, a lot of the available energy sources are located in somewhat unfriendly territory or other areas where the environmentalist would go crazy.

The worlds energy use is funding some of the growing trouble spots at this time. How's that for a happy thought?

[Abe]

How can a continent like Australia with a population of say 35 million consume more energy then the USA with a population around 400 million

[US Iceman]

Here is a link to the Worlds Resources Institute:

http://earthtrends.wri.org/searchable_db/results.php?years=all&variable_ID=351&theme=6&country_ID=all&country_classification_ID=all

This link shows the various countries consumption in "Kilograms of oil equivalent (kgoe) per person per year".

That's interesting. Canada is actually higher than the US. Just a little though.

Australia is up there close also.

[Abe]

Here is a link to the Worlds Resources Institute:

http://earthtrends.wri.org/searchable_db/results.php?years=all&variable_ID=351&theme=6&country_ID=all&country_classification_ID=all

This link shows the various countries consumption in "Kilograms of oil equivalent (kgoe) per person per year".

That's interesting. Canada is actually higher than the US. Just a little though.

Australia is up there close also.


Yes, Aus is in the region of 5K per person...........US is in the region 7K per person.

Now multiply by population

Am I correct??

[Abe]

Ok

Consumption is:

USA , 7920. x 400 million odd
AUS 5974 x 35 million odd
UK 3993 x 70 million odd

ps: I am approximating population figures

So when you add up US is the Worlds biggest consumer of energy

Not meekly, but greedy litlle Oz
:)

[Abby Normal]

Here is a link to the Worlds Resources Institute:

http://earthtrends.wri.org/searchable_db/results.php?years=all&variable_ID=351&theme=6&country_ID=all&country_classification_ID=all

This link shows the various countries consumption in "Kilograms of oil equivalent (kgoe) per person per year".

That's interesting. Canada is actually higher than the US. Just a little though.

Australia is up there close also.

Its colder in Canada, North Dakota and Alaska probably bring your average up.

[Tango]

hi all & good evening, day etc:
we are all in the same boat as it were, the pie is only so big & we all take a slice of the pie & being preditory in the main, we all try to get as much as possible. I think I'm right when I characterize things as they stand regarding human beings, right!
So long as we all behave as though humans are #1, then what of the rest of the living creatures etc: that inhabit this planet?
I realize this thread is taking another tack than originally introduced by Brian UK.
It makes me grimace when the talking heads talk about Carbon sinks, Carbon Credits & any number of other "Ostrich head in the sand type behaviour", its all spin. Why dont we try & get the basics right. Be more conservative & understanding in our attitudes to energy, other human beings & other living/non living things. every thing doe's have to revolve around profit, does it?
Sorry I'm being melodramatic.
Be well & Ciao.