refrigerant for use at an outside temperature of -60°F / -50°C

[H2genius]

hi all !

sorry my first post .... sorry for that .. but glad i found this group!

i am looking for a solution for a refrigerant to use in the following conditions
for a system to be able to work reliably
provide heating at ambient outdoor conditions of -60°F / -50°C

to cool down a system that operates at up to 300°F/150°C to ambient temperature of 95°F/35°C


application is heat pump + conventional AC with inverter technology

how to prevent freezing of the condensor / evaporator or piping system?

suggestion are welcome.

thank you all for taking the time to read my post!

looking forward to receiving your suggestions!

H2genius

[frank]

I think that at 150C ambient, all of the electrical wiring and components would be shot!!

[Rob White]

hi all !

sorry my first post .... sorry for that .. but glad i found this group!

i am looking for a solution for a refrigerant to use in the following conditions
for a system to be able to work reliable
provide heating at ambient outdoor conditions of -60°F / -50°C
provide cooling at ambient conditions of 95°F/35°C up to 300°F/150°C

application is heat pump + conventional AC with inverter technology

how to prevent freezing of the condensor / evaporator or piping system?

suggestion are welcome.

thank you all for taking the time to read my post!

looking forward to receiving your suggestions!

H2genius

The refrigerants on the market at the moment are R410A, R32 and R447 look them up. They all have their own advantages and limitations.
Look them up.

The ambient you suggest is way out Max 45degC or 50degC
As Frank states electrical equipment is rated at only 70degC.

Rob :)

.

[H2genius]

thank you for the answers, i have redacted the initial thread for better understanding.

the ambient temperature is indeed below accepted mentioned temperature of 70°C, what i meant was that some of the system parts needs to be cooled down to work properly .

in cold weather conditions of -50°C these parts need to be heated to work properly. once in operation, these will heat up to possible temperatures of 150°C; and thus need to be cooled down.

therefor, my purpose is to use a solution with refrigerants where i can heat up / and switch to cooling mode as well similar to inverter AC technolgy

[Rob White]

thank you for the answers, i have redacted the initial thread for better understanding.

the ambient temperature is indeed below accepted mentioned temperature of 70°C, what i meant was that some of the system parts needs to be cooled down to work properly .

in cold weather conditions of -50°C these parts need to be heated to work properly. once in operation, these will heat up to possible temperatures of 150°C; and thus need to be cooled down.

therefor, my purpose is to use a solution with refrigerants where i can heat up / and switch to cooling mode as well similar to inverter AC technolgy

Trim heaters on drains and other water based objects will be built into most manufacturers equipment and would come as standard. the minus 50degsC is still extreme.
I don't know of any refrigeration system and that includes heat pumps that have upper temperatures as high as you are looking at. Above 100degsC is high above 150degsC is ridiculous and I don't know of a refrigerant that will work with those parameters.

It's not only the refrigerant you need to consider, The oil is as important and if you have the wrong oil inside it the thing will fail very quickly. You are talking of a temperature range of between -50degsC and +150degsC?

That is far too high for any refrigerant oil that I know of. Some oils will easily work down to -50degsC but they don't like the high temps, I imagine even car engine oil would struggle at +150degsC.

Use something like Coolpack to run your selected refrigerants through some possible temps.

https://www.ipu.dk/products/coolpack/

https://www.ipu.dk/products/coolpack/

But I don't think the oil will take that type of extreme temp range.

Rob

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[frank]

If I'm reading this correctly, the equipment he is going to use can, while in the 'off' condition, chill to -50C and needs to be pre-warmed to allow it to 'start'. Once started, the equipment itself can reach temperatures of 150C and the room containing the equipment needs to be kept at no more than 35C.

If my understanding is correct, then I would suggest that the -50C problem is dealt with by electric fired resistance heating, maybe fan assisted, while the room temp can be controlled by normal refrigeration means.
All you would need to know is the total heat gains from the equipment, together with fabric gains/losses and any other heat gains to size an appropriate system using cooling equipment operating on run of the mill refrigerants.

[RANGER1]

R1233zd(E) below 20 deg C goes into vacuum.
Heat liquid receiver with heat trace, insulate for off periods

[Brian_UK]

Kind of sounds to me like he is trying to preheat an engine and then cool it after use or something similar, a proper description always helps in getting the best answers.

[frank]

Maybe not always easy when your first language is not english Brian

[Brian_UK]

Fair comment Frank.

[seanf]

provide heating at ambient outdoor conditions of -60°F / -50°C



What about a water source heat pump? Maybe you have a river or the sea near by you could use as a heat source.




to cool down a system that operates at up to 300°F/150°C to ambient temperature of 95°F/35°C



If you do have a river or the sea near by why not use that as the cooling medium. Or use that -50 Deg C ambient temp.

[sterl]

To cool this, if the outdoor ambient is as low as minus 50 and never gets above 10-deg. C you don't need compression or power input. Passive heat pipes will certainly do it and you can vary the interior air flow to prevent overshoot. You will need to consider frost on the interior coil if there is an associated source of moisture in the interior space. If there is no moisture you are going to have a very dry interior condition.

To heat pump this to raise interior air temperatures is going to be a challenge because its not going to be commercial type equipment....The thermofluid requirements are such that any compressor lubricant is going to be compromised. If this whole thing is of scale and I were starting from scratch, I would be looking at a hydrocarbon as refrigerant (which will be flammable and operate at high pressures on the interior coil side) and a "dry" compressor, which will be expensive....but you can specify dry sump and standby heating for the lubricant tank which precludes many issues from a hermetic, wet sump compressor design.

If this is small scale: My first inclination would be to contact somebody in the Autocascade business because their equipment is of the right scale and they develop their own thermofluid mixtures to accompany more like standard refrigeration components.

If you are trying to combine this such that you have an AC/Heat pump with hermetic compressor and reversing valve type set up: Best of luck. Its not impossible but its not off the shelf either. Between motor exposure and lubricant issues, it will require some exotic fluids.