Aluminium Pipe

[don van vliet]

Good mrning everyone! First time poster here and was wondering if anybody has used aluminium pipe on any install jobs and was wondering how they found it?

[Makeit go Right]

Not used it and I am staying away until I hear a lot of good reports about it.... and some installation time clocked up too.

I keep thinking about the differing coefficient of expansion of these two different metals (copper and aluminium) and I just cannot think how it can last any length of time, expanding and contracting, many times a day xWeeks xYears. Something has got to give, which is likely to be the copper stretching to match the rate of ali expansion, and then, well, fridge+ali.... sounds worrying.

But, yet I cannot understand how a business would be selling it for aircon installs without some sound and successful testing of the product. So, I am very interested to hear about this one, in say two years, to know it is still performing properly and no rip-outs to replace with proper copper tube.

[install monkey]

i am not using it as the recycling value is poor!!! so theres no incentive to switch to alternatives

[JoeAT50A]

We don't recommend to use, some distributors and suppliers are going to void their warranty in our fareast.
Galvanic effect caused by Aluminium reacting with Copper and impact to the system is uncertain.
The strength of Aluminium pipes are uncertain compare to Copper pipes that had been in use for decades.
Copper has a high thermal conductivity of 400 W/mk compared to 237 W/mK for Aluminum.
So CU is the winner but expensive than AL.

[MikeHolm]

Due to the cost of copper, some companies (Hydro...for one) has produced aluminum tubing for solar panels and supposed to be very corrosion resistant BUT it will only last if there are absolutely no copper or brass components in the whole system. I, for one, won't be using it any time soon.

[Boxer]

I have heard that aluminium pipe has been used in asia for air conditioning installations for the past 18 months with out any problems.If the costs are lower than copper and it performs the same job as copper then market forces will drive the product to the fore front of the industry.

[texas64]

Heatcraft is now making some of their refrigeration condenser coils totally from aluminum as well some air conditioning manufacturers. I have seen rooftop units in 7.5 ton with aluminum coils from Rheem/Ruud. York is manufacturing aluminum condenser coils for their residential line. The name of this technology is "microchannel". I have had a few warranty issues with pinhole leaks forming in less than one year. Can you imagine how long it would last near the coast? Not sure about how coil coating these type of units would hold up against corrosion.

http://www.heatcraftrpd.com/products/familydetail.aspx?&FilterCol=&FilterVal=&LPNO=5&catID=HC133&pageNo=1&cID=2

[texas64]

I know my post has nothing to do with aluminum pipe, but was making the point how aluminum would not be a good idea in certain applications.

[charlie patt]

cant braize it it rots like hell in the uk and everything we sea a alloy coil in lasts halve the time of copper i can sea why we need it to work due to weight and cost but at the moment its not possible in our climate

[Magoo]

Every car air con uses aluminium tubing. Vibration, heat and wet enviroment.

[Boxer]

Most chiller manufacturers are now using all aluminium condenser coils. WHY ? Cost, weight. and performance. If the aluminium is not mixed with a dissimilar metal then the galvanic effect will not happen and the aluminium creates its own protective coating making it last forever!

[MikeHolm]

Every car air con uses aluminium tubing. Vibration, heat and wet enviroment.

Is it coated, Mr magoo? I tend to think most other components in autos are steel or aluminum so there may not be a problem.

[mikeref]

Every car air con uses aluminium tubing. Vibration, heat and wet enviroment.That was what i was thinking Magoo. Although the only part in some vehicles, is the TX valve which is brass. Side note: I don't think vehicle a/c aluminium components are 100% pure. When making Hydrogen and using a/c parts, the chemical reaction is poor compared to using aluminium from other sources.. just an observation..Mike.

[PK_35]

We tried it on a couple of split system installations earlier in the year and have had numerous call backs for flares leaking after a month or so, maybe due to contraction/expansion which i've never had with copper?
Had to replace with copper in the end :mad:
Tried to save money and it cost us again!

[lokaro1]

I think the above comments are incorrect - the problem with current aluminium pipe is that it is of an inferior mix and you are having to use plastic inserts in the flares 'what's the point of that' - If you get a pipe with a 97% aluminium mix you will have no problems. What I would say to anyone in the industry is that it is time to change - why - because there is virtually no copper left on planet earth - what is being used is recycled and the Chinese are buying everything that is available. The industry needs to find and alternative which will make our work more profitable.

[Boxer]

I totally agree Lokaro1 as I said in my earlier post its been working in Asia for 18 months with very good feed back. Its only a matter of time before we all have to change and go with aluminium.Price will be God !!

[SeanB]

Nice idea, but it will crack and will leak. Removed an old Carrier that had aluminium coils, and every joint was either cracked or brittle, most broke off just by touching them. It might work on an outdoor unit not near the coast and not used as a heat pump, but add a little salt and it will corrode in short order. As well no way to repair them, I have seen cheapie Chinese units that have a pipe kit made from aluminium, most of the time the installers throw it away and put copper pipe in. BTW, what rumour that copper is now running out? Just that now Zambia is reopening the old closed mines in the Copper Belt, and selling the output mostly to China.

[MikeHolm]

copper IS running out, it is a semi-precious metal. A lot of boiler manufacturers are going more stainless, maybe the fridge industry will too (I am making some solar products with thin wall stainless at less than half the cost of copper)

[Kompulsa]

copper IS running out, it is a semi-precious metal. A lot of boiler manufacturers are going more stainless, maybe the fridge industry will too (I am making some solar products with thin wall stainless at less than half the cost of copper)

Feel free to pm me with more if you please. I am curious about how you would use stainless steel tubing.

[Boxer]

Aluminium pipe will work and people will use it because the cost of copper will dictate the change.Made enquiries and there is a new product about to hit the market and by all accounts it appears to be the real deal.Will keep you all up to date if I find any more information.;)

[chemi-cool]

copper IS running out, it is a semi-precious metal. A lot of boiler manufacturers are going more stainless, maybe the fridge industry will too (I am making some solar products with thin wall stainless at less than half the cost of copper)

Copper is much less corrosive, SS welds should be polished and clean with acid. You must have a nitrogen or Argon flow inside the tube while welding it or it will rust in no time.

[MikeHolm]

I agree about copper Chemi, but none the less it is running out and there are options coming out. I am silver soldering stainless tubing now for some things but not refrigeration parts. I would expect it to be become more prevalent in the industry. One must pick the right grade of stainless as well.

[Magoo]

A large proportion of ammonia evaps these days are coming out as aluminium fin and tubing these days, so where is the problem with using aluminium on domestic type equipment. Seems to be more of a resistance from trade people as per all the previous comments. Joining pipes is not an issue if you use quality compression fittings.

[MikeHolm]

So what is causing all the reported leaks, compression fittings excepted?

[Magoo]

So what is causing all the reported leaks, compression fittings excepted?
Hi Mike.
I can only imagine the quality of alum., is the real issue. In industrial applications the coils are defrosted with hot water, sanitzed with chemicals the whole 9 yards, as well operate with sauced products which add more corrossive stuff. Not a problem. Coils rated for ammonia at design ratings +50 'C.

[lokaro1]

Why now and Why Aluminium?

It is a known fact that the Global copper market is now in deficit, it’s cost is rising and in the years to come, many of us will encounter problems
With SUPPLY of copper due to increased consumption of copper by China.

The price of copper rose 27% in 2010 on 2009 levels indicating that copper tube could be seen as becoming too expensive for installers
To purchase and acts as a trigger for growth of an alternative metal.

Following our research we are now bringing to the market some “know-how” with a product which fits our current and future economic climate
An Aluminium Tube for the Air conditioning & refrigeration industry, with high technical performance and reliability comparable with the rates
Of production of copper.

In addition aluminium tube has several advantages which are presented below;

Why aluminium tubes better?

Escalating Copper Prices
Shortage of 199,000 ton in 2011 (Standard Bank Plc)

Shortage of 457,000 ton in 2012 (Standard Bank Plc)

Average price at USD 8700/Metric ton in 2012

Supply shortage due to deterioration of copper ore and lack of further investment

Price Trend – Sideways or Up

Why Copper was chosen as the pipeline for air conditioning & refrigeration?
Due to the hardness and rigidity

Can be easily repaired

Prices in year 2000 for copper +/-1300/metric ton comparing to 2300/metric ton

Why Aluminium Now?
Stable and low prices compared to copper (approximately 1/3)

Abundant Inventories

Higher thickness to compensate in rigidity & hardness yet maintaining lower prices than copper

Can be easily joined or repaired with our special formulation brazing rods

Aluminium Source & Inventory

Aluminium is the most abundant metal in the Earth’s crust, and the third most abundant element,
After oxygen and silicon. It makes up about 8% by weight of the Earth’s solid surface

Size Length

1/4 50m
3/8 50m
1/2 50m
5/8 50m
3/4 50m




Characteristics & Advantages over copper

Flaring
Requires lesser strength

Uses the same set of tools as flaring copper

Higher thickness on pipe enables a more strong and even flare

Bending
Requires lesser strength

More flexible than copper

Does not kink easily compared to copper

Uses the same set of bending tools as copper

Brazing
Special formulation rods allow up to 50 joints

Fast, easy and secure joints in 10 seconds

No turning of torches or rounding up gaps

4 times faster than brazing copper

No additional flux required

Uses same torch or turbo torch

More saving on gas, time and brazing rod due to lower melting point of aluminium

Joints are stronger than main material

Estimated GBP 3p per joint

Swaging or Expanding
30% expansion from original OD

Uses the same set of swaging tools as copper

Longer length Coils – Coils come in 50m (larger sizes) & 100m lengths minimising joints

Lesser joints would mean lesser tendency of leakage

Uses less time, gas and brazing rods

Pressure
Pressure tested to meet CE regulations

Certificates available

Corrosion
48 salt water test before shipment

Corrosion rate is very much less than copper

Oxidisation rate is also lower making pipes clean and bright when exposed

Thermal Conductivity
Lower than copper by almost 50% which means lesser rate than copper

[lokaro1]

For more information just go where I have been looking http://www.aluminiumrefrigerantpipe.com/

[paul_h]

Got a vested interest in selling aluminium piping?
BTW, never seen the yanks spell it as aluminium before,as this spell checker keeps telling me it's aluminum.

All seems a bit suss to me, new 1 post member asking the question, then lokaro1 bounding in, giving us some USA styled site but spells it the proper way. I think this is marketing/spam.

edit: cut and paste the link above, whats that all about? Never seen one so long, looks like tracking clicks from this site for sure.

[don van vliet]

Got a vested interest in selling aluminium piping?
BTW, never seen the yanks spell it as aluminium before,as this spell checker keeps telling me it's aluminum.

All seems a bit suss to me, new 1 post member asking the question, then lokaro1 bounding in, giving us some USA styled site but spells it the proper way. I think this is marketing/spam.

edit: cut and paste the link above, whats that all about? Never seen one so long, looks like tracking clicks from this site for sure.

Not at all, used the aluminium as a trial last week and it was shocking to use, one joint in particular just wouldn't take for some reason? Btw Paul, you shouldn't make assumptions without evidence, learn to keep your opinions to yourself ok?

[paul_h]

double post 10char

[paul_h]

Ok, so you used aluminium piping last week, found it bad, but said nothing until a week later, one hour after I called the situation a bit suss?
Yeah right.next you'll say it was only bad aluminium because you didn't get it from aluminiumrefrigerantpipe (http://www.aluminiumrefrigerantpipe.com/Why) Why didn't you say anything before? Why take such offense when my point was another poster going on about aluminium piping, not you? It's like you were monitoring the thread under a different alais to me. Being so quick to respond, but never giving any feedback before hand...

[don van vliet]

Ok, so you used aluminium piping last week, found it bad, but said nothing until a week later, one hour after I called the situation a bit suss?
Yeah right.next you'll say it was only bad aluminium because you didn't get it from aluminiumrefrigerantpipe (http://www.aluminiumrefrigerantpipe.com/Why) Why didn't you say anything before? Why take such offense when my point was another poster going on about aluminium piping, not you? It's like you were monitoring the thread under a different alais to me. Being so quick to respond, but never giving any feedback before hand...

Calm down dear ;)

[frank]

Looks like our friends Boxer, Dan Van Vleit, and Lokaro1 are the same person - according to their IP address :eek:

[firey1]

Looks like our friends Boxer, Dan Van Vleit, and Lokaro1 are the same person - according to their IP address :eek: N00bs, what fools to underestimate IP powers.

[worst_adm1n_eva]

Delete the thread and them then. Don't give the the benefit of the discussion and the dodgey link

[paul_h]

Glad to see you're on the case Frank.
I may be a cynical old *******, but really I can only rely on good mods that have access to IP and other stuff to validate it.
I can smell crap from a mile away, sometimes too late though, so it sticks for a while.
I'm glad to be shot of any recent crap I may have picked up recently.

[Gideon Beddows]

i am not using it as the recycling value is poor!!! so theres no incentive to switch to alternatives

What if you fill the Ally pipe with sand and bang the ends over before weighing it in?

You cant go back to that Tat man again though? :(

[Gideon Beddows]

Good mrning everyone! First time poster here and was wondering if anybody has used aluminium pipe on any install jobs and was wondering how they found it?

I was wondering if anyone can suggest a good Air Conditioning Unit, close control, built in the Uk but the Company owned by a massive, German Engineering Company. I'd like the cabinets to be a dark blue/grey colour and I'd like the units name to rhyme with Benco?

Any ideas?

[Gideon Beddows]

I was wondering if anyone can suggest a good Air Conditioning Unit, close control, built in the Uk but the Company owned by a massive, German Engineering Company. I'd like the cabinets to be a dark blue/grey colour and I'd like the units name to rhyme with Benco?

Any ideas?

Funny you should ask that, Gideon but i would suggest 'Denco' :D

[lokaro1]

I really don't like the feedback here - 27 years in the industry and offering my advice as to where I see the marketplace going. Only time will tell but for sure it will happen

[paddyaircon]

copper rules

[stufus]

Funny you should ask that, Gideon but i would suggest 'Denco' :D
MMMMMMMMM...
One suspects someone is gainfully employed by an A/C manufacturer with a name that rhymes with Benco;)

Cheers
Stu

[install monkey]

TONTO- haha

[frank]

Glad to see you're on the case Frank.
I may be a cynical old *******, but really I can only rely on good mods that have access to IP and other stuff to validate it.
I can smell crap from a mile away, sometimes too late though, so it sticks for a while.
I'm glad to be shot of any recent crap I may have picked up recently.

The IP address does relate to the Company though so they may be different people from the same office.....pity I don't have a crystal ball.....ouch :rolleyes:

[Brian_UK]

I really don't like the feedback here - 27 years in the industry and offering my advice as to where I see the marketplace going. Only time will tell but for sure it will happenSadly the feedback you and yours received was self inflicted.

[MikeHolm]

So, Lokaro1, are you Don? Might as well ask directly:D

[lokaro1]

No I am not Don - nor am I Boxer - just a director of a company with 27 years experience - and the moderator Frank can't even be bothered to reply. I think I will address the site with the Institute of Refrigeration

[MikeHolm]

Frank might be out working like the rest of us (or sipping Harvest Pale, as he is wont to do) and it is up to him if he replies.

To some on here, it looked a bit suspect and that is all.

[Boxer]

Glad to see you're on the case Frank.
I may be a cynical old *******, but really I can only rely on good mods that have access to IP and other stuff to validate it.
I can smell crap from a mile away, sometimes too late though, so it sticks for a while.
I'm glad to be shot of any recent crap I may have picked up recently.


Hey Paul_h and Frank are you the same person ?
And the crap you can smell is your own dinosaur dung

[Makeit go Right]

Looks like our friends Boxer, Dan Van Vleit, and Lokaro1 ...have the same IP address

I think the point being make, Boxer/Dan Van Vleit/Lokaro1, is that you should at least highlight your vested interest and the common I/P address, too, when posting on these boards, particularly on this subject which is practically an advert for ali. It did look like (still does) like one of you pitched the OP just so that the other two could come in later with all the positive spin that would possibly sway us all over to this wonder metal, aluminium.

We don't like being manipulated like that. Had far too much of this from Blair/Brown/Cameron/Murdoch, so are quick to spot it. Shame to spin an important thread like this one in that way. At least we know more about your position on this matter, now.

[lokaro1]

If only I had the power of the spin doctors - I was just giving my personal opinion of where things will go
Sipping Harvest Pale whilst working is not such a good idea, especially when your driving

[stufus]

Hey Paul_h and Frank are you the same person ?
And the crap you can smell is your own dinosaur dung
Good man Boxer
And there I was thinking this is all getting a bit childish .
Cheers
Stu

[Boxer]

Good man Boxer
And there I was thinking this is all getting a bit childish .
Cheers
Stu

Point taken Stu,
But I thought this site was to educate,inform and discuss any aspects to improve our industry. Because in these difficult times we need all the help we can get. Just take a look around and there are a lot of companies having hard times.:(

[install monkey]

still sticking to copper-it has a better resale value! sorry dudes, unless braided hose becomes cheaper!!!

[MikeHolm]

Install, do you drive around the neighbourhood picking up scrap?:D Kind of a second career.

[install monkey]

theres no monry in that mike- theres 2 lil paddys who have cleaned up and recycled gates,copper,york v condensers and they even tried to weigh theyre grandma in because she's shiny!!!

Install, do you drive around the neighbourhood picking up scrap?:D Kind of a second career.

[mikeref]

If only I had the power of the spin doctors - I was just giving my personal opinion of where things will go
Sipping Harvest Pale whilst working is not such a good idea, especially when your driving Not being nasty now, but it might be a good idea to get to know the members on this site before making non refrigeration related comments. Yes, Personal experience!

[Brian_UK]

A bit :off topic: , but I have found in the past when dealing with people, that whenever they have been shown to be in the wrong, for whatever reason, they start throwing personal attacks because they cannot argue properly.

This thread is beginning to show these signs from a few newcomers or is it just me?

[MikeHolm]

Brian, I think it is going nowhere productive so should probably be locked. I am sure there will be another time for this discussion without innuendo.

[lokaro1]

Don't lock it discuss it - this is going to happen and you need to get yourselves informed

Like it or not, change is an integral part of today's business climate. Those employees who embrace and initiate change will thrive, while those who complain and fear change may be headed for the unemployment line. :D

[Bluboo]

I've got a discussion for you.
You should never treat your future customers as fools. Or look down on them, or insult their intelligence.

you want to talk about aluminium pipe, maybe someone should look up the competition to these clowns and invite them here to discuss it with them instead. At least the thread won't be wasted, and these clowns will learn to realise that if you want to advertise, pay for it, not generate interest deceptively.

What you tried was marketing, and it failed because you were bad at it. Waited until the thread got started by yourself under an alias or an employee, then spewed a post full of propaganda by rote. Your not very good at this are you, and a bit cheeky when it didn't go your own way. I agree with what Brian said, most people who do the dodgey get really snarky when caught out.
You don't deserve a discussion after what you did, spammers don't deserve any respect, if this discussion should happen (if it does at all), in a thread without your link in it. Or do you daily converse with the spammers sending you spam etc in your email?
Respect the forum for what it is, discussion for members not trying to market products in general conservation, and if you want to advertise, pay for it! Don't insult the people here saying what you supplied was free discussion, it was all marketing, with a link to your business, done with business in mind, not discussion. You would have got more respect with the web link (how can new posters even post a link? I thought that was disabled for new posters?)

[Bluboo]

*You would have got more respect withOUT the web link.

[lokaro1]

Looks like a midlife crisis - and your all miles off the mark - how can you identify who the business owner is?

[worst_adm1n_eva]

1) You aren't successfully trolling when everyone knows you are a troll.
2) I would guarantee you are 'don van vliet' now, just based to posting style.
3) Do you have to be the owner of a company to be willing to promote their business these days?

[sux2blokaro1]

1) You aren't successfully trolling when everyone knows you are a troll.
2) I would guarantee you are 'don van vliet' now, just based to posting style.
3) Do you have to be the owner of a company to be willing to promote their business these days?

Ha Ha, I might keep this one

[lokaro1]

The guys on this site are amazing - definatley had to much gas escape through there brains - the comments are worthless

[Boxer]

The guys on this site are amazing - definatley had to much gas escape through there brains - the comments are worthless
NOW NOW Ladies keep it clean and friendly we are all supposed to be batting for the same team [industry]

[Boxer]

[QUOTE=Bluboo;245730]I've got a discussion for you.
You should never treat your future customers as fools. Or look down on them, or insult their intelligence.

you want to talk about aluminium pipe, maybe someone should look up the competition to these clowns and invite them here to discuss it with them instead. At least the thread won't be wasted, and these clowns will learn to realise that if you want to advertise, pay for it, not generate interest deceptively.

What you tried was marketing, and it failed because you were bad at it. Waited until the thread got started by yourself under an alias or an employee, then spewed a post full of propaganda by rote. Your not very good at this are you, and a bit cheeky when it didn't go your own way. I agree with what Brian said, most people who do the dodgey get really snarky when caught out.
You don't deserve a discussion after what you did, spammers don't deserve any respect, if this discussion should happen (if it does at all), in a thread without your link in it. Or do you daily converse with the spammers sending you spam etc in your email?
Respect the forum for what it is

SPAM SPAM SPAM whay are you going on about ?? it started as and was only a discussion about aluminium pipe, because some body asked the question. chill out as they say.

[stufus]

At the risk of bringing down the wrath of the Mods
I personally have no time for blatant advertisement or trolling
So could those of you involved please f*ck off somewhere else and leave the rest of us to carry on .
There is enough crap going on around her with people who shouldn't be allowed leave the house on their own asking advise on various aspects of the trade.
Don't get me wrong I'm all for helping people with the desire and aptitude to do what we do but i draw the line at watching people blatantly blowing smoke up each others arse holes.
So please JOG ON
Cheers
Stu

[mikeref]

Gee Stufus. Just as well your well respected on this forum for priceless information. Didn't think the pressure was getting to you, but, as they say, we're all human. Maybe the Mods will turn a blind eye on your post ;)..respectfully, Mike.

[WebRam]

Thread closed.
The thread starter or lokaro1 can start a new thread on the subject if they wish, as long as first declairing an interest at the start of the discussion and by following the site rules.

Cheers