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john doersom
15-07-2005, 12:49 AM
Have you fellas across the pond (at least EAST of NYC) had much success with the "MANEUROP" compressors from DANFOSS?

I am considering the benefits as advertised for the Maneurop compressors to replace the Copelands that we now use on fruit cold storages here in PENNSYLVANIA. Copelands are just too expensive now. THANKS for insights.

Andy W
15-07-2005, 07:20 AM
I am not a big fan of Maneurop, I find them very noisy and the MT18 is possiblty the worse compressor that I have used. They are better on 3 phase than single phase.

Abe
15-07-2005, 10:16 AM
Ask me to chose between Copeland and Man

Copeland wins hands down........every time

Man is noisy..........the capacitors on fans fail every so often..
it just kinda.........works odd..........

john doersom
15-07-2005, 11:01 AM
Thanks for your reply's.

We were trying to come up with an alternative hermetic compressor that we can use to comply with the 2010 EPA changeovers that we need to look forward to. Manuerop seems to be the only one advertising the ability to change oils, and, the same compressor will utilize the newer refrigerants. Most of our equipment uses R-22 which we need to phase out eventually. We will probably convert to R-410(a) with most of our 71/2 hsp and 10 hsp. equipment.

Peter_1
15-07-2005, 11:22 AM
Scrolls from Benchmark (Bristol) seems very promissing.
But if I had to chose between Bitzer or DWM, then I should chose without no doubt Bitzer. Very, very silent, no vibration, almost same price, ...

chemi-cool
15-07-2005, 12:04 PM
Its a funny question,

I love the Maneurop compressors and use them all the time when I need hermetics, only 3 phase though.
Never had any problems with them.

On the semi line, I agree with Peter, Bitzer comes first and then DWM.

Chemi :)

FreezerGeezer
15-07-2005, 01:52 PM
Hi John
If you don't mind me asking, why 410a rather than 407c?

BESC5240
15-07-2005, 03:36 PM
Thanks for your reply's.

We will probably convert to R-410(a) .

Hi John,
When using R410A you will need compressors with a MWP of 45 bar (on the HP side). Not all 'standard' compressors can handle this.

john doersom
15-07-2005, 06:03 PM
Well, Thanks.

We are used to the older hand-made 30yr. old equipment that I originally installed in the cold storage rooms during my 35 yrs. as an independent refrigeration contractor.

Our equipment is mostly "KRAMER(tm) " product originally hand made in Trenton, N.J.

I watched men hand drill holes in the mounting frames for the condenser and evap. during the assembly of same. After they had the return bends hand welded, they submurged the "coils" in a water tank. Then they applied 40,000 pounds of "water" hydraulic pressure thru the coils to expand the copper to the standard size of 1/2 in. od, or 3/8 in od.

Out of due respect to those "older" craftsmen, I am keeping the equipment as OEM as possible. Currently we operate Copeland(tm) semi-hermetic compressors on the rooms that require CA (controlled atmosphere) . These are 10's and 20's, R-22. Originally we used R-502.

I will probably keep the semi's on these rooms. However, we have a smaller room that uses only 7 1/2's.

We hope to use this "smaller room" as a TEST BED for the MANEUROP's(tm).

Our main supplier, here, is United Refrigeration, Phila. PA.
They are allowing me to arrange a trip to Germany to visit with the MANUEROP factory people.

The reason I will use 410(a) is that I MUST only stock only two refrigerants (I am allowed to say "*****" because DuPont Co. is my ALAMATER)

So for RURAL Pennsylvania, agriculturally speaking, most of the older equipment will use *****(tm) R-22 orR- 410(a). I will do my part to keep the price of MILK affordable. EPA or no EPA!

John C. Doersom
Gettysburg, PA

chillin out
15-07-2005, 08:52 PM
Just to add

I am not a big fan of Maneurop, I find them very noisy and the MT18 is possiblty the worse compressor that I have used.
I condemed one of them today! (mtz18ja5ve)

frank
15-07-2005, 09:52 PM
I like the Maneurop compressors and have just placed an order for 2 MT100 3 phase units to replace 2 Trane comps. Mans are quite forgiving with liquid floodback. OK, they are not really quiet but seem to run forever.

Bitzer are not really AC compressors but of the ones I've worked on I'm very impressed. We are looking to replace a hermetic vertical screw (http://www.hartfordcompressors.com/) with a Bitzer on a Dunham Bush chiller.

john doersom
15-07-2005, 10:41 PM
What was wrong with the compressor?

We used to open them up and make mechanical repairs such as valves, internal Klixons(tm) etc. I am not sure, yet, if Manuerop will sell us parts for the hermetics. Just a few weeks ago, Copeland refused to sell us parts for a 3 hsp. R-22 hermetic compressor.

I used to rebuild the hermetics when we couldn't get compressors from Copeland(tm), Tecumseh(tm) while I was in Australia. I wish now that I wouldn't have scrapped-out the "can opener" that I had for hermetics.

Most of the time is is just minor repairs, bearings, valves, etc. for hermetics. I used to offer a 1 yrs. warranty on the rebuilds.

I used to know an "off-shore" resource for parts for hermetics, but that was 25 yrs. ago.

Oil return seems to be the biggest problem for the breakdown of hermetics. The new Copeland(tm) hermetics are all Mexican parts, even though the label says "Made in USA". Just had a new Copeland come through with NO oil in the compressor. There was only some assembly oil in the bottom of the POT.

John Doersom

Peter_1
16-07-2005, 07:28 AM
.....he new Copeland(tm) hermetics are all Mexican parts, even though the label says "Made in USA". Just had a new Copeland come through with NO oil in the compressor. There was only some assembly oil in the bottom of the POT.

Those for the European market are coming from the Belgium plant in Welkenraedt

john doersom
16-07-2005, 11:10 AM
It looks like we might being trying R417a as a replacement for R-22 in our existing equipment. First, I have to check with Copeland(tm) to see if they will approve for warranty issues.

Thanks, everyone for your replies.
John Doersom
Gettysburg, PA

Superheatman
16-07-2005, 11:23 AM
I like the Maneurop compressors and have just placed an order for 2 MT100 3 phase units to replace 2 Trane comps. Mans are quite forgiving with liquid floodback. OK, they are not really quiet but seem to run forever.

Bitzer are not really AC compressors but of the ones I've worked on I'm very impressed. We are looking to replace a hermetic vertical screw (http://www.hartfordcompressors.com/) with a Bitzer on a Dunham Bush chiller.

Hi Frank....just curious...what was the problem with the verical screw...we have cut a few open and flanged them...swapped bits and had some parts machined from new....mainly as an experiment and to "see inside"...we had to use massive flanges(made by Jerome) to satisfy insurance specs for pressure testing.

We gave it up in the end as Dunham bush would only supply external parts ...their navy spec screws are already flanged but are expensive and difficult to get hold of....of all the ones we cut open(maybe eight..both twelves and fifteens)...there was only one burnout...all the rest were slide valve piston seals....we had some modified pistons and seals made to our own design which are still running after a few years.

We have one compressor with the unloader seals down at the moment awaiting a clients order....they are a bit shy because of the cost which includes a crane lift in central London(Big bucks)...I am interested in your proposed replacement of a Hartford with a Bitzer...the latter being a much more reliable unit...the "O" ring seals are a bit prone to leakage in high temperature running conditions but they are semi's so easy to strip.Is there plenty of room to install the Bitzer on the unit you are exchanging on???....best regards...John.

frank
17-07-2005, 01:10 PM
Hi Frank....just curious...what was the problem with the verical screw...we have cut a few open and flanged them...swapped bits and had some parts machined from new....mainly as an experiment and to "see inside"...we had to use massive flanges(made by Jerome) to satisfy insurance specs for pressure testing.

It appears that the slider valve has jammed in and the screw is seized. Apparently, they have now changed the design to prevent this happening. That's according to John at DB. The machine was purring nicely then just stopped dead at 6.23 one saturday morning. (according to the Trend printout). I don't think we'll play about opening the hermetic and then trying to re-flange it.

Once we remove the compressor I think there will be enough space to fit a Bitzer semi. The hard part is going to be getting the old one out and the new one in as it is on the forth floor and under partial cover.

Obviously, we will need to re-jig the pipework, fit an oil seperator etc. but this seems preferable to buying a replacement Hartford vertical screw :eek: . We've been quoted 6.5K for the Hartford alone. As you said, at least with the Bitzer you can open them up for repair.

Superheatman
17-07-2005, 03:50 PM
Obviously, we will need to re-jig the pipework, fit an oil seperator etc. but this seems preferable to buying a replacement Hartford vertical screw :eek: . We've been quoted 6.5K for the Hartford alone. As you said, at least with the Bitzer you can open them up for repair.

I mistakenly thought that you were going to use a Bitzer screw Frank...hence my comment about the external "O" ring seals....with your comment about fitting an oil seperator I can see you are talking about a recip....will you attempt to reprogamme the D/B controller or will you change the controls altogether??

frank
17-07-2005, 05:51 PM
We've changed the controls already.

When the chillers were installed DB refused to commission properly because the architect had designed a cant louvred roof over them and they could not reject the discharge hot air. We got involved after everyone concerned with the project walked away under contract. The client obviously needed the chillers on line so we took over the maintenance and servicing.

As DB would not give any back up or passwords the client got us to rip out all the DB controls and fit Trend. (we didn't do the control change over but worked with the Trend guys)

Out of the 3 chillers, 2 continue to work fine but we lost the No.2 unit fairly early on in the project to this slider valve problem. With the recent weather, the client is now convinced that he has got to spend the money so we may very shortly be doing the change over. It was my idea to use the Bitzer (856m3/hr swept volume) as at least these comps were servicable. There is nothing we can do to the Hartford as it's hermetic.

Superheatman
17-07-2005, 07:10 PM
Well the very best of luck with the project....it sounds an interesting one...thats what makes this job so interesting isnt it??..when it is up and running maybe you could let us know how it all went?...best regards...John. :)

glabah
24-02-2006, 09:59 PM
Ask me to chose between Copeland and Man

Copeland wins hands down........every time

Man is noisy..........the capacitors on fans fail every so often..
it just kinda.........works odd..........


Where I work, the preference is for Maneurop hermitic compressors, but for entire condensing units we gave up several years ago. The compressors still seem to be OK, but everything on the condensers, from fans to electrical box assembly, just hasn't been very good recently. The quality of the condenser assembly just seemed to go downhill over the course of several years.

We had an entire batch of condenser units where the fans broke loose from the motor shaft. After that, we designed and put into production our own line of condensers with fans from another manufacturer, but still with the Maneurop compressor.

On the other hand, our particular business tends to be large systems, and so we use the MT100 series compressors. Those are still made in Europe. The smaller compressors (MT18 and so forth) are apparently made "somewhere else" (according to a phone conversation with them). The difference in quality between those still made at the European plant and those made at the "somewhere else" facility might be why some us have very different opinions about these compressors.

fixit
24-02-2006, 10:25 PM
Well folks
Any compressor but Maneurop compressors, no room for error ! just burnout. Replaced more blue bellies than any other.........

guy in blue van
26-02-2006, 06:25 PM
from ct. please dont waste your money on the blue.
you'll be lucky if you see 5 years out it.

chemi-cool
26-02-2006, 07:24 PM
Its all a matter of installation.

I can show you many of them, working in hot conditions and still running fine after 15 years.



Chemi:)

Jasper
26-02-2006, 08:00 PM
Have nothing but respect for Manuerop Compressors.

Last forever as long as the installation is clean.

Comes down to good installation procedures as usual.

philippe
04-07-2006, 10:52 AM
I'd add the precision that all the MT's from Man are made in the same plant in France.

Phil.

slingblade
04-07-2006, 08:40 PM
I'd add the precision that all the MT's from Man are made in the same plant in France.

Phil.


And then chopped in half by the likes of LH and others,where they build 1 out of the remaining bits of 4 dead ones and weld the 2 halves back together. The so called remanufactured units are prone to popping.

philippe
10-07-2006, 10:55 AM
And then chopped in half by the likes of LH and others,where they build 1 out of the remaining bits of 4 dead ones and weld the 2 halves back together. The so called remanufactured units are prone to popping.

Is it here a serious forum ? Or humor-destress posts ?

slingblade
10-07-2006, 07:41 PM
Is it here a serious forum ? Or humor-destress posts ?


I do not understand your question. the fact of the matter is that in the UK it is possible, when faced with a dead maneurop, to buy a remanufactured unit which is nothing more than a combination of parts from several dead units. whilst this is cheaper than a new one it can have its drawbacks, rapid failure being the foremost. i have nothing against maneurop or indeed the french in general and this was not intended as "humor-destress post" whatever that may be. in fact Vive la France, and good luck in the 2010 world cup.;)

old gas bottle
11-07-2006, 07:31 AM
i agree with the above apart from the football cause itay won by now,oooooooop.s,if there fitted correctly as anything on a new system fine,if you inherit a well troubled system which we all do its a case of how long is this gonner last then ! good thing is there easy to change,i think thats allways been there strong selling point.

philippe
11-07-2006, 01:38 PM
...the fact of the matter is that in the UK it is possible, when faced with a dead maneurop, to buy a remanufactured unit which is nothing more than a combination of parts from several dead units. ;)

OK, I thought you were speaking about original Mans; not of hand-rebulit ones by some repairers. But in that case, take also car to PED !
We're ashamed :( form the Mundial final result, we'd better remember the Brazil match :) . And one more final is not so bad :o

Toolman
11-07-2006, 02:53 PM
Our main supplier, here, is United Refrigeration, Phila. PA.
They are allowing me to arrange a trip to Germany to visit with the MANUEROP factory people.

The reason I will use 410(a) is that I MUST only stock only two refrigerants (I am allowed to say "*****" because DuPont Co. is my ALAMATER)

Maneurop ? DONT DO IT !! Sounds like your supplier is in deep with the Maneurop boys .Trip to Germany sounds so tempting but its just a tin can in the end isnt it :confused: if they pay for you to go to Germany ultimately you will pay for the trip in the end ( in compressors ) , go for the Bulletproof Bitzer, Perhaps consult another Refrig Engineering Co. so you have honest opinions . Because as you can see by the replies most recommend Semi-Hermetic type compressors , anyone who recommends Maneurop is not being straight with you . If you are operating milk coolrooms R404 will do all your work , R410 is extremely high operating pressure :eek: . I only use R410 when it comes in those High Wall units that have a 5 year parts and labour warranty, they dont give that on real refrigeration applications , too many variables .

zvikard
11-07-2006, 04:44 PM
Hi , John , i do work in comercial a\c here in Israel , and we do replace some scroll comps from Trane units 12 and 10 HP , when one of the Trane comps goes i replace them with Maneurop , actually we got better results with them , also we use some Maneurop reciprocal of 5 and 6 ton , R22 , with the same good results , no conplains from me price wise or performance wise , good luck and all the best, Tzvi.
P/s only 3 phase , no experience with single phase.

Rajeevcoldtech
18-07-2006, 01:55 PM
hai

maneurop we can not compare with copeland

Renato RR
18-07-2006, 02:18 PM
Did someone work on Bitzer 8FC70,2.I have repeated troubles on that model.

Renato

donato
18-07-2006, 10:51 PM
maneurops' internal thermal protection caused so much trouble to me. http://www.chez.com/fbetou/autopsie.htm

BESC5240
19-07-2006, 08:39 AM
The internal motor protection does not open itself. There is always a reason why it opens : temperature (overheating and indirectly overcurrent). It's easy to blame the compressor but mostly the reason is
- inpropre system build up (soldering without N2, moisture in the system, poor oil return...)
- poor maintenance (clouged condensor, bad defrost regulation, ...) ...

Abe
19-07-2006, 12:10 PM
maneurops' internal thermal protection caused so much trouble to me. http://www.chez.com/fbetou/autopsie.htm


Pity its in French
Looks very intresting the article

CuGe
21-07-2006, 04:07 PM
Spend the extra and buy the Copeland. Their Scrolls are the best.

DeB
22-07-2006, 05:24 AM
Its amazing how it went from maneurops to semis to screws.Everyone has wandered from the main question. Most compressors in the semi hermetic range are fairly good today. Good Installation and maintenance are the key be it Bitzer, Copeland, Frascold, or any other quality semis. Abuse anyone of them and they wont last. Maneurop or copeland hermetics will do the job at an initial saving on purchase price. By the time they need replacing we may be using co2 or some other environmentally more friendly refrigerant together with more energy efficient compressors. Why not just use R134A for now It works and is readily available especially due to its large use in auto a/c. Who knows what we will be using in a few years time that may render the semi obsolete. I can still remember when the belt drive was king in Australia. The Kelvinator open compressor made here was legendary for its longevity but could not outlast progress and technology.

Temprite
22-07-2006, 01:30 PM
[QUOTE=DeBI can still remember when the belt drive was king in Australia. The Kelvinator open compressor made here was legendary for its longevity but could not outlast progress and technology.[/QUOTE]

I still see these on milk vats and some older pubs, not much goes wrong with them, slower reving than the Terry comps and far more reliable.