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Lc_shi
09-07-2005, 04:42 AM
air source heat pump has more advantages: easy installation \maintenance\low operation cost etc. but it can't work well in winter.Is there other way out to improve it except for adding electricity heating? any ideas? thanks

Deejey
09-07-2005, 08:00 AM
air source heat pump has more advantages: easy installation \maintenance\low operation cost etc. but it can't work well in winter.Is there other way out to improve it except for adding electricity heating? any ideas? thanks

Air source heat pumps can work well down to as low as around 4.4C or 40F. When outdoor temperatures fall below 40F, some units have electric heater elements that kick in to provide indoor heating. This is why air-source heat pumps aren't always very efficient for heating in areas with cold winters.

Geothermal heat pumps are similar to ordinary heat pumps, but use the ground instead of outside air to provide heating, air conditioning and, in most cases, hot water. Because they use the earth's natural heat, they are among the most efficient and comfortable heating and cooling technologies currently available. They use loess energy the conventional heat pumps and are much quieter

Abe
09-07-2005, 08:08 AM
air source heat pump has more advantages: easy installation \maintenance\low operation cost etc. but it can't work well in winter.Is there other way out to improve it except for adding electricity heating? any ideas? thanks


Is it possible to show some diagrams, or pictures Ic Shi.........
on air source heat pump and how it works
Thx

frank
09-07-2005, 06:04 PM
Air source heat pumps can work well down to as low as around 4.4C or 40F.

The current range of Daikin R410a inverter heat pumps will work perfectly well with ambients at -15C :) and without the help of electric heaters

smileypete
11-07-2005, 07:36 PM
The current range of Daikin R410a inverter heat pumps will work perfectly well with ambients at -15C :) and without the help of electric heaters

Really? Do you know what sort of capacity drop and efficiency they have at freezing temperatures and below? Also the length of the defrost cycle could be useful to know.

There is technical info on the Daikin site, but it's not available to mere mortals... :rolleyes:

For countries with a mild climate and relatively high average winter temperature like the UK, I wonder if pumping water through a ground loop and over the 'condenser' coil in the outdoor unit would help.

The ground loop pump would only be used when necessary together with disabling the fan.

When the temperature is mild it could be recharged by running the fan and circulating water, so it's warmed by the air. This way it would become a thermal 'flywheel'

The ground loop could even be a pond or large water tank instead of a loop underground. The circulating water could be normal condensate from the outdoor unit.

cheers,
Pete.

Peter_1
11-07-2005, 08:16 PM
The current range of Daikin R410a inverter heat pumps will work perfectly well with ambients at -15C :) and without the help of electric heaters

Thermodynamically seen, it will of course work but the overall COP?? Should it reach 1 at that time. I doubt it very much.

In the last company I worked together as a freelancer, we installed a Mitsubishi Electric VRF in the offices. In the place I sat, there was a ductable unit but due to the heavy workload at that moment (winter, outside temperatures less above freezing point) the ducts were partially installed an no grills. The ducts hanged out the ceiling temporarily.
This was also the reason why I felt very good what the outdoor unit was doing. It went almost every 45' in defrost and a defrost cycle lasted more than 5'. While defrosting, the fan ran at a very low speed but out of the duct, there was a very cold air coming out it.
The temperature in the office dropped by this.
It then took some minutes again before the unit went into his heating mode.
And it took again several minutes before the coil warmed enough to start the fan. This whole cycle from start of a defrost/cooling of the room/ waiting for heating/ reheating the coil lasted at least 15'. The temperature in the room had dropped also in the meantime.
So it took at least 20' before it reached the previous temperature and +/- 30' later, a new defrost started again.

Even Mitsubishi Belgium came with their fabulous software but everything was normal.

They were serious thinking about installing water heated coils (with gas) in the ducts.

Another strange technique: Mitsubishi also has a water cooled version of their R2 system - can't remember the type right now - the complete heat regain system.
All the outdoor units are connected on the waterside together and the main water lines goes to an outside drycooler.
Well, they don't use the hot water from the 'too-hot' coils to heat the 'too-cold' coils.
They don't use the benefit of lowering HP when it's outside cold.
The units keeps running at the same HP, whatever water temperature they can reach.
They don't use the benefit from free cooling when available.


And for those who read my posts in the past, they know that I
have very much faith in geothermal heatpumps, especially the DX ones. You can reach in some occasions COP's from 5 even 6.
BESC5240 and I did together once a theoretical approach of it - while eating our sandwiches at noon- and we even reached COP's more than 7? Do you remember this?

Geothermal heatpumps are the only heatpumps that can perform the best under all conditions.
Why?
Compared to air cooled systems, when do you need the heat inside the building the most? When it's very cold outside and heat is then almost outside not available anymore. But, it's still available deep in the ground at a very stable temperature.

Same picture in summer: when suffers a compressor the most to reject his heat? When it's outside at his highest point. But again, we can use the cold soil to condens at very low stable temperatures.

So it benefits in winter and in summer. The only disadvantage is the price and the price for the drilling.

We even started with the construction for a vertical drill with an auger to drill holes of 5 inches and +/- 75 feet deep.
Auger is almost finished, special drill head with possibility to use pressurized water in the center of the auger is finished but...time, time, time.

frank
11-07-2005, 09:15 PM
i,ve got to agree Peter, the COP measurements are taken and published but I don't know at what operating conditions.

I was just quoting the published data from the latest R410A equipment. Having installed a lot of these systems I am quite impressed with their performance and quietness.

Here's a link to the Daikin site where you can read all the relevant advertisements for the current Daikin kit :) http://www.daikin.co.uk/default.jsp

Peter_1
11-07-2005, 10:03 PM
Do once the test for yourself and re-calculate some values.
In the technical manual, you can find the heating capacities at varying outside conditions, also -5C as far as I remember.
If you then look for the power at these econditions, you will find a much lower COP.
But, you then haven't even taken in account the negative impact of the whole defrosting cycle which takes a long time and drops the COP even more. (or do we wall this the EER like the Americans do?)

Lc_shi
12-07-2005, 01:58 AM
as we all know,air source is not as good as underwater or geothermal source ,but it's still the most widely used in China due to the buildings limitations(most Chinese living in apartment ,not single house ).In winter ,the heat pump is not working efficiently. Now the tech is optimizing the software for defrosting cycle and reducing time,and addng heating to balance the defrosting time capacity. I wonder if there are better ways to improve the situation

smileypete
13-07-2005, 09:39 AM
as we all know,air source is not as good as underwater or geothermal source ,but it's still the most widely used in China due to the buildings limitations(most Chinese living in apartment ,not single house ).In winter ,the heat pump is not working efficiently. Now the tech is optimizing the software for defrosting cycle and reducing time,and addng heating to balance the defrosting time capacity. I wonder if there are better ways to improve the situation

lc_shi,

Do you know what the typical COP of an air conditioner/heat pump is in China?

Also do they have an energy labelling scheme like we do in Europe or something similar?

One way of preventing frosting that might work on larger installations is to pump non-toxic antifreeze like poly ethylene glycol (PEG) over the coil, this would absorb water instead of it freezing on the coil.

The water would then be separated out by reverse osmosis, PEG has a high molecular weight so should be fairly easy to separate.

There are plenty of references of the web for separation of ethylene glycol from water.

cheers,
Pete.

Carlo Hansen
13-07-2005, 04:35 PM
It is possible to get 20% more out of the heat pump by using TFC
instead of thermostatic valves. The TFC system operates in a way
so there is no temperature diff. across the evaporator, this means that it will take longer time to build ice on the evaporator,and you can use all the evaporator size, because the evaporator runs like a flooded evaporator.
The first heatpump we build many years ago has to start the defrost cycle by +5C and the COP was 1 by 0 to -5C.
The defrost cycle was started by a thermostat and a timer, but now with the TFC we can use the new thermostats with the buildt in defrost cycle.

Best regards
Carlo Hansen

Lc_shi
14-07-2005, 01:50 AM
Hi Smileypete,
The energy label system has already begun in China. The usual COP (household split air source heat pump) is from 2.3 to 2.6 ,however the rating will be higher in the future. It's great to know there is what you talked about water separation tech. I'll do some search. thx.

Hansen,
what's TFC system? could you give some more details.thx.


regards
lichuan

Carlo Hansen
14-07-2005, 03:55 PM
Hi Ic_shi

The TFC system called (Thermostatic flow controller) has been develloped by Lars Zimmermann.
It is a patented system witch allow the evaporator to run as a full
flodded system combined with a heate xchanger.
There is only 2 companies using this for now and one is starting to
produce TFC` as a black box, witch replace the reciever and the
termostatic valve.
I set in the link to Lill Nord.
The company making TFC black boxes is RikSi A/S in Denmark, it is a
new company and they do not have a hompage for now, but is working hardly to it.

If interested mail to the director: jes@riksi.dk.

Links:

http://www.wulffdata.dk/English/index.htm

http://www.lillnord.dk/eng-sider/news.html

Lill Nord is calling the system - Supracooler.

I bring a cooling diagram for a black box, used for milk cooling, do not attempt to the temperatures because the system is not running.

Best regards
Carlo Hansen