Industrial flake ice machine Auger keeps jamming

[Chris2005]

Hi All,

I was at a fish factory today doing a coldroom and he asked me to have a look at his flake ice machine.

Its an industrial type its in a stainless steel frame,
Maneurope compressor Mt36
R22 Gas
Pujol gearbox on top of auger
3 phase motor to gearbox

The problem is the flake ice machine runs for about 10 mins a small amount of ice comes out about a buckrt full then the motor on the auger starts to complain then jams up,

The auger barrel is stainless about 300mm wide and about 400mm high with a line of bolts around the top.

There is no make or model on the machine.

Its seems like the blade in the barrel is not able to shear the ice off when it freezes for a while.


Regards

Chris

[nike123]

Increase amount of salt in water.

[mad fridgie]

Increase amount of salt in water.
Correct, Sir Nike:D

[Chris2005]

Hi Nike,

I dont see anywhere where the salt can be added,
It has a stainless steel chamber with a float inside connected straight to the mains.

The owner said it ran ok for years then it went away for a service and was never right since, but the people who done the work wont come back.


Regards

Chris

[Gary]

Type of metering device? Air cooled? Water cooled? EPR? CPR? Any other devices? Running pressures?

[nike123]

Hi Nike,

I don't see anywhere where the salt can be added,
It has a stainless steel chamber with a float inside connected straight to the mains.


Is it something like this:
http://www.delta-ice.com/products3.html

When knife cannot cut ice it is to chick and too hard. Either water is not salty enough or evaporation temperature is too low.
Content of salt determines ice hardness at certain temperature. If there is no place to add salt than you need to adjust evaporation temperature in order that ice is not too hard when comes at knifes.
That is theory. I have been on devices such that only twice, and I fixed both by recovering, finding leak, and weighing in correct amount of refrigerant.
Not much experience about that.;)

But I am sure that we both will learn something in following posts of our colleagues.:)

[chemi-cool]

It could be the bearings, they should be made of SS.
Check the gear and the chain\belt that drives the auger.

Doe's the motor trip when the auger jams?

[Chris2005]

Overload trips out when motor jams , then if left a few hours it starts up again,
I am only going on what the man told me it was getting late in the evening when I was there I had a quick look and said I would find out more information on the machine and get back to him.

I will go back and check pressures etc next weak I thought maybe there was a fault with auger so I wasnt going to get involved as I have no parts,

But if its something else I will give it ago.

Its abit like the one in the picture but its more of a home made job.

Its Made in killybegs. Ireland

Regards

Chris

[Gary]

Possibly it has something like an AEV or EPR to keep the evaporating temp constant.

As Nike has pointed out, low evap temp can make the ice too hardened to harvest.

[Chris2005]

Hi

I never seen any other valves fitted , just an internal equalized R22 R407 expansion valve , The unit has no reciever which I thought was a bit odd having an expansion valve.


As stated in another post maybe this machine is for salt water not fresh.

I am going back some of these next days to make changes I will let you know how I get on,

Thanks for the help so far I wasnt aware these machines could be used with salt water so thats good to know :)

Regards

Chris

[Goober]

Made in Killybegs, Wild West Coast of Donegal....that in itself says enough. Probably some ships Engineer with a bit of experience in refrigeration thought he'd make himself a homemade flaker.....but that doesn't really solve your problem, definatley sounds like a West Coast Custom job if ever there was one though. I'd say you're in for quite a bit of trial and error.

[Gary]

The owner said it ran ok for years then it went away for a service and was never right since...

Something was changed and I am assuming it was not a change from saltwater to freshwater. Something is causing the evaporating temp to be too low.

[Magoo]

Flakers operate at or close to -28'C, ice should look cloudy, and come off the drum in sheets, 2>3 mm thick. If clear looking and chunky the salt level is too low. The clearance of scaper or what ever used is also important. The drum has to be cleaned regularly as well.

[Peter_1]

We service a lot of Geneglace and other ice machines because we're living near the sea and around 2 Belgium harbors.

The flakers of Geneglace and Scotsman operates at -17°C to -20°C.
We have some Chinese machines running and they run on -20°C.

How far is the auger running from the cylinder? It should be as close as possible without touching it. Look the whole way around.

Look once if the bearing of the auger or the bearing under the transmission isn't worn out. You take the auger and try to push it the other side. You mat not see any play.

The jamming at the start of the machine is normal but it should stop after some minutes. If you want to avoid this, you must start the machine first (pump and auger) while adding some salt (brine), a little bit more than normal, and then after some minutes, start the compressor.

Adding salt as proposed here is very minimal. It's not like throwing some salt in it. The brine solution must be dripped in a continuous and controlled way.

Adding too much salt will also jam the auger.

Is the upper bucket full of water and are all the holes completely free flowing (no calcium or debris in the holes?)
Enough is till the overflow pipe is flowing over.

IS this the machine [http://coldvink.nl/images/ijsscherf_GENEGLACE_packunit-KL.gif
If so, they're not fitted with a TEV from factory but with a capillary tube.

[Magoo]

How is that Peter_1,
Geneglace quote -27 ish 'C for fresh water and -34 ish 'C for seawater.
magoo

[Chris2005]

Hi Peter

The machine looks abit like the ice maker in your picture byt slighty different its most likely a copy, the man said his heart has been broke with it.

I am going back on wednesday to make changes, I am going to try a different tev with R401a gas and see how it goes,

Or do you think I should try and install a capillary into the system ?

Regards

Chris

[monkey spanners]

If it worked ok before, some thing has changed and stopped doing quite what it used too, this is what you need to find out, before you start changing the design of the system imho.

Jon :)

[Chris2005]

Hi Jon,

The owner said it has always give trouble he thinks its a load of rubbish,
But since it was last taken away and serviced its been worse than ever before, but I have no way of knowing what the last man did.

So its really just a case of trying a few changes it cant really get any worse than it is at the moment.

The machine makes ice at the start so the auger part should be ok ,its just when the barrell really sdtarts to freeze after about ten mins its starts giving the trouble,

I might not change the gas but if all else fails its an option.

Regards

[monkey spanners]

Ah i see, turd polishing! Well you can't get more broke than broke i guess :)
Maybe a evaporator pressure regulator would be an idea if the problem is it getting too cold.
I think i would fit some gauges and temp sensors and record readings so i could see what had changed when it starts to give trouble, but must admit to never having seen a flake icer let alone been let loose on one!

Good luck with it,

Jon

[Chris2005]

Cheers Jon

I will let you know how I get on with the polishing :)

Regards

Chris

[Magoo]

have you tried putting salt in it yet. Could be the original problem

[nike123]

I think that temperature of feed water, evaporation temperature and speed of rotation of auger are related.
I think that ice should be about 2-3 mm thick before harvest.

[mad fridgie]

Start at the beginning
have check the current draw of the moter, and does this corrospond to the overload?
Increase the flow of water over the Drum, is the flow equal over all the drum.
do you have any method of controlling head pressure, if so increase to increase evap pressure ( the combination of more water and high SST, should make the ice a little less hard. The SST temp predictes the ice production capacity, the lower the SST the more capacity the drum can produce.
If problems still continue add a salt doser.

[joe-ice]

hi ,alot of the older models of the flaker in the picture used to have a small pump type device attached to the auger motor that used to squeeze a hose pipe attached to a drum of salt water to draw the salt mixture into the top water trough of the machine ,perhaps this was removed during service. ,i have never seen one to work any where in ireland without salt addition

[Chris2005]

Has anybody got a picture diagram explaining how the Auger should be working on the model in picture above.


So when I strip it down tomorrow I can Check everything is correct.

Many Thanks

Chris

[aupanner]

Strip drum check bearings and descale drum and auger. If its a stainless auger use a wire brush in drill and if its a brass drum use a flapper wheel welded to a rod, use in adrill to clean up drum.

[aupanner]

Forgot to say check drum is not worn where ice excits as the gap between drum and auger will be too big.

[Chris2005]

Hi All

I was back today to look at the flake ice machine ,
Heres the pics the problem in on the auger.

3748

3749

3750

It looks like the machine is just not able for the fresh water, should they bend and break apart like this?

I think I will try a milder gas and fit a fan speed controller once i get it bent back into shape and tig welded.

Regards

Chris

[Magoo]

At the risk of repeating myself, put some salt in the bleedin' water.

[Peter_1]

Evaporating too low will make that 1. the ice sticks to hard to the cylinder and 2. th ice can become to thick where the scraper isn't able any longer or isn't strong enough to scrap of the ice.

Haven't seen this type of scraper before. You haven't made a picture of the machine itself? It looks much more like a scraper for wet flake ice insted of dry subcooled ice where the fresh water is in constant contact with the upgoing harvested ice. Is this the case?
When the ice falls in the bin, does it stick together?
Isn't there some sort of an overload with a switch on the harvest motor?

[Peter_1]

I think that temperature of feed water, evaporation temperature and speed of rotation of auger are related.
....
Indeed and very important

[Peter_1]

Does they use rainwater and can you find the capacity of this machine. Then I can give you the salt/brine that needs to be added.

[Chris2005]

Hi Peter,

The machine has a overload for the auger motor and was working ok it tripped as soon as auger started to make a scrapping noise.

I was chatting the man who owns this machine yesterday and mentioned adding salt he said the man who makes these machines makes two types one for salt and one for fresh water and the one he has is the fresh version.

He said it worked ok for the first year or more on fresh water and was ok until taken away and serviced which cost him a fortune , so maybe the dealer put in a new design auger which is no good for what its being used for.

Can someone post details for the salt adder


Thanks

Chris