Altherma from Daikin

[Scott Samson]

As a company we are looking to become accreditted installers of Altherma A/GSHP's.

Any ideas if the staff who will install and maintain them will require refigerant handling training? The chosen refrigerant is R-410A(IF THAT HELPS), Have contacted Daikin direct but have not yet had a reply!

Any Advice?

Thank You

[1torr]

If you are installing and maintaining the refrigerant side, then yes.

[Brian_UK]

I'm surprised that as a potential agent for refrigerant containing equipment you are even asking a question like that.

[Grizzly]

Scott,
As 1torr suggests,
Your guys will need safe handling as a minimum plus very shortly City and Guilds 2079.
This is all basic knowledge within our industry.
I must admit I am confused by your question.
Given you are considered for accredited installers!
Grizzly
OOPS! Brian has beaten me to it!
Still the question remains!

[frank]

As a company we are looking to become accreditted installers of Altherma A/GSHP's.

Scott

The Altherma is not a Ground Source Heat Pump.

Seems like you haven't done much research into this?

Are you plumbing/heating contractors?

[wardy2]

if you wan to install the daikin altherma to install the refrigeration circuit you should have the relevent refrigeration qualifications ie. safe handling and would require a good Knowledge of good refrigeration practices so you know its being done correctlly,if there going to be installed in domestic premises thewater side has to be done to relevent local authorithy regulations (G3 for unvented systems) and electrically to part P

[brunstar]

the new Monobloc by Altherma, will not require to have safe handling of refrigerants, until the system needs to be reapaired as it is a packaged unit but you will need the G3 side if you are a plumber. it also contains less than 3kg of refrigerant and is avaliable in 11kw to 16kw.

you will have to also do a two day training course to be able to purchase the product.

[wardy2]

I did not know the monoblock was being released yet

[brunstar]

it is in the sales brochure and extranet.

[brunstar]

here it is.
http://www.altherma.eu/technical-specifications/outdoor-unit/default.jsp

[wardy2]

won,t that look nice in your garden

[brunstar]

if that is what you want but i do think that the split type is better and more flexable.
All of the other brands of air to water source heat pump are more expensive and you get less for your money..
if it was on a farm well space will not be an issue.

[wardy2]

I was just messing about with that last comment, i have seen altherma,s working in a few locations and on different applications, they seem to work really well if sized correctly so its going to interesting to se a monoblock when it becomes a bit more widely used. Its just going to be another learning curve for to ride along, but then again do we ever get off it ?

[Grizzly]

the new Monobloc by Altherma, will not require to have safe handling of refrigerants, until the system needs to be reapaired as it is a packaged unit but you will need the G3 side if you are a plumber. it also contains less than 3kg of refrigerant and is avaliable in 11kw to 16kw.

you will have to also do a two day training course to be able to purchase the product.

What am I missing brunstar?:confused:
Could you help explain to a thicko like me,
Why will you not need Safe Handling?
Grizzly

[wardy2]

because its a package unit, you just have to connect the water pipework therefor no refrig tools required just turn it on and commission.

[Grizzly]

because its a package unit, you just have to connect the water pipework therefor no refrig tools required just turn it on and commission.

I suspected it was something like that!
Does that not beg the question that anyone can install these.
Provided they comply with part P ? (or does it come with a 13amp plug fitted?)
Scotts company should have no trouble then as they are Electrical Engineers.
But what happens when there is a warranty issue?
More importantly is this not what we are all trying to move away from?
Maybe someone can enlighten me as to the ethics of a company supplying and installing.
Heat pumps without a minimum of a safe handling certificate.:eek:
I suppose what i am asking is, is this allowable?
Grizzly

[wardy2]

is this not the same as a ducting company craning up a package unit to the roof and putting the ductwork in ? But i know what your saying and we will just get the call when they have tried to have a play and messed it up ! sound familiar

[Grizzly]

is this not the same as a ducting company craning up a package unit to the roof and putting the ductwork in ? But i know what your saying and we will just get the call when they have tried to have a play and messed it up ! sound familiar

Good Argument!
Well presented!
Grizzly

[brunstar]

Grizzly,
the reason for this is that most of the fridge engineers are not going to condem boilers so there needs to be a market for plumbers, in relation to fridge certificates, like the split Altherma i feel as though it is best to have all 3 trades involved with the job, so that if there is an electrical problem, the sparky can attend and i there is a fridge problem, the fridgie can attend and likewise for the plumbing.
there will still be a must for a sparky and a plumber to be on site to get the thing running. the system will need 2 32 amp single phase supplies for the outdoor unit, so it won't be a plug in job really, if they have hot water they will also need another 16amp supply.

a good system really, works well.
same principals as a mini chiller really.

[Thermatech]

When there is a problem who will go to fix
Plumber ?
Electrician ?
Refrigeration / ac engineer ?

The plumber could go to site only to tell the enduser that its a problem with the heatpump or the power supply & he is not responsible for that.
The electrican could go to site only to tell the enduser that the power supply is ok & that the problem must be with the plumbing or heatpump.
The refrigeration engineer could go to site only to tell the enduser that the heatpump works ok & that the problem must be with the plumbing & he is not allowed to work on that.

If I was an enduser looking at this type of water heating solution I would want to use a local company who had engineers who were qualified to install & service plumbing systems, electrical power supply systems & refrigeration systems because I would expect any problem to be identified on the 1st visit to site with the only return visit to site for fitting replacement parts.

So how many engineers are there that have all the latest qualifications for plumbing, electrics & refrigeration ?

Some local heating engineer calls himself a plumbtrician because he is qualified plumbing / heating engineer & also qualified electrician.

So what can we call an engineer who is fully qualified for plumbing, electrics & refrigeration ? :D

[beagle]

So what can we call an engineer who is fully qualified for plumbing, electrics & refrigeration ? :D

Polish?


Oh ok, you said qualified, sorry :D


Great points you raise though, Sanyo have a similar system which is also co2 that they're promoting heavily including their training for said product. It'd be interesting to see how and what they cover during that one day training course :(

[brunstar]

in relation to repairs, the way it should be attended to is.
the person that sells the job is responsibe to the customer, if he sub contracts out to either two other trades he is responsible for the first visit and must deligate where required.
like a pyramid, first response is installer, then he can decide which problem and who is responsible for it, this step may be easy to send the correct party first off with the fault code from the controller relayed to the installer and he can deligate from there.
It is also important that all parties are trained properly so that they know how to check each trades workmanship and ensure it is carried out correctly from the start.

it is very important that it is correctly installed from the start as a lot of trades in the UK are not use to the domestic market, when you think about it most people do not know a good electrician or refrigeration mechanic, may have a plumber, if the end user is satisfied with all 3 trades then end users talk and there is no better work leads than "word of mouth", if they try to avoid "slag of mouth" showing there good workmanship they will start to recieve a chain reaction of work and each of the 3 trades can refer work onto each other.
it makes good sense if done correctly, most important the gain of trust from the end user..

In relation to sanyo's CO2 system, COP is not very good at that but they will tell you different as they are basing their tests at 20 -25 degrees c, now that is not realisitic, if you need to compare get the figures at 7 degrees.

i hope that this helps.

[Brian_UK]

So what can we call an engineer who is fully qualified for plumbing, electrics & refrigeration ?Is he a Plelecfriger ? :D
Just checked back, geez, even I can't spell it properly; let's try Plumlecfriger

[brunstar]

that is a good invention Brian but i think the real name would be "A true Champion", wealthy one at that considering most find it difficult trying to just get their own trade right...lol

[milkybar33]

if you buy the kit from space air, you wont be maintaining it as they insist that they take over the maintenance before sell the kit, good look

[brunstar]

well this is not the way to treat the customers that are buying from you really..