Charging additional 410a refrigerant

[batfink]

Hi,

Our split ac system doesn't have power yet but has been piped up, strength and leak tested and will be vac'd down tomorrow. I am wondering how the engineer will weigh in additional 410a refrigerant into the system without power to the system. Obviously he can weigh in via breaking vacuum with the refrigerant, but how does he remove the refrigerant in his charging hose, surely he would have to vent it to atmosphere? Something I wouldn't really approve of. Bit difficult if you can't run up the system I would of thought?

cheers,

B

[Brian_UK]

Hi,

Our split ac system doesn't have power yet but has been piped up, strength and leak tested and will be vac'd down tomorrow. I am wondering how the engineer will weigh in additional 410a refrigerant into the system without power to the system. Obviously he can weigh in via breaking vacuum with the refrigerant, but how does he remove the refrigerant in his charging hose, surely he would have to vent it to atmosphere? Something I wouldn't really approve of. Bit difficult if you can't run up the system I would of thought?

cheers,

B
RED The amount of refrigerant in his hoses would be very small and is an accepted penalty of working with refrigerants. It is covered within the F Gas and other Regulations.

If the techie is working as safe as he can then his hoses will, in fact, have isolating valves at the working end of the hose which will reduce the venting even further.

BLUE We are assuming that additional refrigerant is required for your ppipe run although you told how long or how much extra refrigerant is required.

But, yes in most cases the extra charge can be added into the vacuum as you are normally talking about extra grammes not kilos.

If push comes to shove then a recovery machine can actually be used to inject the refrigerant.

[batfink]

I suppose the refrigerant lose via hose is minimal, but still surprised. I am pretty sure seeing the guy work before he only has standard hoses and not ones with iso valves on, bit wouldn't the iso valves only keep the gas locked in between the gauge manifold and the valve? Also there would be some lose from the schreader valve on the service port. Perhaps I worry too much :)

The guys seem to know what they are doing, I just like to know as well, its in my nature. I like to see procedures on paper whats going to happen and how, how else do we learn :)

Cheers,

B



RED The amount of refrigerant in his hoses would be very small and is an accepted penalty of working with refrigerants. It is covered within the F Gas and other Regulations.

If the techie is working as safe as he can then his hoses will, in fact, have isolating valves at the working end of the hose which will reduce the venting even further.

BLUE We are assuming that additional refrigerant is required for your ppipe run although you told how long or how much extra refrigerant is required.

But, yes in most cases the extra charge can be added into the vacuum as you are normally talking about extra grammes not kilos.

If push comes to shove then a recovery machine can actually be used to inject the refrigerant.

[Brian_UK]

Perhaps I worry too muchMaybe, just a little bit ;)

Your concerns over the environment are fair and not to be dismissed however if you want reassurance then ask to see his Safe Handling Certificate and raise your concerns with him.

I'm sure that he would prefer to discuss it with you first rather than have you hanging over his shoulder watching every move.

Being pressured without good reason can make people make mistakes and can cause injuries so be fair without being over-zealous.


wouldn't the iso valves only keep the gas locked in between the gauge manifold and the valve?
Yep, that is exactly their purpose other than the one of reducing the dangers to the technician.

Also remember that if the AC is running then the pressure within the hoses/gauge set would be around the 4- 5 barg range. Is this going to make you feel better when the hose is disconnected ?

[batfink]

very true. We only used certified guys when having to weigh in refrigerant due to pipe lengths that exceed the pre-charge limits.

Its a shame that we are having to weigh in with out the unit powered up.

Sorry about the other thread I started, it got me thinking on how this procedure is conducted normally. Would love to have a read up on procedures etc

Many thanks for your help,

B


Maybe, just a little bit ;)

Your concerns over the environment are fair and not to be dismissed however if you want reassurance then ask to see his Safe Handling Certificate and raise your concerns with him.

I'm sure that he would prefer to discuss it with you first rather than have you hanging over his shoulder watching every move.

Being pressured without good reason can make people make mistakes and can cause injuries so be fair without being over-zealous.


Yep, that is exactly their purpose other than the one of reducing the dangers to the technician.

Also remember that if the AC is running then the pressure within the hoses/gauge set would be around the 4- 5 barg range. Is this going to make you feel better when the hose is disconnected ?

[batfink]

interesting watching the engineer today. He vac'd the system down then broke vacuum by letting the refrigerant in. On his blue hose connected to the service valve he had a quick connector, so that solved my fear of letting any refrigerant out of the system. Once the manifold was disconnected from the bottle and system I was surprised how much gas released from the hoses and manifold. I spose he could of had iso valves on the hoses to keep the majority of it within the manifold, but then that might not be suitable if using your setup again on a system that doesn't need any extra gas.

Was interesting to see.

[batfink]

sorry to bang on about this but I am interested. How would you preserve the refrigerant in the hoses and manifold block in this situation and how would they be usable again as you wouldn't want to over charge the next system you install using the same setup, so the gas must be vented to atmosphere?

I am the type of guy to work by the book unless common sense dictates otherwise and I don't want to pick up any bad habits :) For now we will use engineers to install for us but I feel a course coming on soon to install our own :) I have already done the F-Gas course which any numpty can do but by no means gives you the right skills.

[Brian_UK]

One way of getting the gas/liquid out of the hoses is to connect them to an evacuated recovery cylinder and vent them into that.

You are, I believe, beginning to get into extremes now.

Most (someone correct me if I'm wrong) sets of rules relating to refrigerants talk about within practicable limits or something similar.

It is not an exact science as yet and whilst we all do our best that is all we can do - try our best.

What a lot of techies do when charging systems is to shut off the bottle valve first and allow any liquid in their hose lines to be vapourised as the system runs. This action will then only leave vapour in the hoses.

A similar action can be done when static charging.

Sorry, another also....

With the modern range of gases now the release of a small amount of gas from the hoses is not quite so evil for the environment as it used to be.

[rant]Bear in mind that the majority of the Global Warming or Climate Change rantings by the Governments is so that they can raise taxes and not to improve the world. [/end rant]

[batfink]

Yep we all love a stealth tax don't we!

I can understand running the heatpump in cooling mode to get whats left out of the hoses, its when the system doesn't have power I get stuck on. In this situation I have seen engineers rub their hoses to cause friction to get the refrigerant in, owww eerrrr.




One way of getting the gas/liquid out of the hoses is to connect them to an evacuated recovery cylinder and vent them into that.

You are, I believe, beginning to get into extremes now.

Most (someone correct me if I'm wrong) sets of rules relating to refrigerants talk about within practicable limits or something similar.

It is not an exact science as yet and whilst we all do our best that is all we can do - try our best.

What a lot of techies do when charging systems is to shut off the bottle valve first and allow any liquid in their hose lines to be vapourised as the system runs. This action will then only leave vapour in the hoses.

A similar action can be done when static charging.

Sorry, another also....

With the modern range of gases now the release of a small amount of gas from the hoses is not quite so evil for the environment as it used to be.

[rant]Bear in mind that the majority of the Global Warming or Climate Change rantings by the Governments is so that they can raise taxes and not to improve the world. [/end rant]

[Brian_UK]

You can, of course, buy cylinder heater pads to warm the tanks or use the more basic method of throwing a bucket of hot water over it ;)

[Rob123]

We tend to wind down the liquid line valve and use the compressor to suck down the lines, before disconecting..... like a pump down.. you then have minal line losses.

[Gary]

Has the global insanity reached the point where we need to worry about the release of tiny amounts of gases that have been deemed "environmentaly-friendly"?

What's next? Anal plugs to prevent methane emissions? (This has actually been suggested by the EnviroNazi's)

[Gary]

To put this all in perspective we need to step into our time machine and travel back to 1986.

Environmental scientists presented the rather dubious and unproven theory, which to this day is still a rather dubious and unproven theory, that CFC refrigerants were somehow going to eventually destroy the ozone layer, which would cause an increase in skin cancer (not the end of the world).

What these scientists said needed to be done and virtually everyone in our industry agreed to (just in case the theory might be true) was to gradually phase out CFC's at the manufacturing level and nothing more.

What began as a reasonable precaution quickly devolved into a slippery slope of outrageous taxation and government micromanagement of our entire industry at every level.

A world gone mad. The lunatics have taken over the asylum.

[Goober]

Well said Gary, whole heartly agree.

Batfink, You are being a tad pedantic.

[lowcool]

Well said Gary, whole heartly agree.

Batfink, You are being a tad pedantic.

here here to both quotes,where do you draw the line as rob123 practises the same as myself,maybe we should carry 5kva generators so that we can run the unit,create more emissions so that we create less emissions,more ohsc,more money for treasurer.nothing like the smell of petrol vapour after you open the van door,light up a smoke and celebrate.sorry about the female dog session get on the grass batfink :o,if you dont know about an issue dont start one,again my spleen has vented,is the batmobile arconditioned ?

[4 evr learnin]

Lets put it in another perspective ! maintain your system ensure a (leak free entegrity) everytime you service it do your best to keep the gas in an contaminats out ! Because theres 2billion consumers out there whose governments do nothing to ensure any Kyoto protocol enforcements are ratified ! China and India(1.8Billion people) still have a dispencation to use R-12 ! Which im sure will never see the inside of a recovery unit/cylinder ! So to put that in perspective 5Grams of vapour, of a non-ozone depleting (yet) refrigerant is fine !! Sleep easy!! I am

[lowcool]

ahh now dont forget that this bloke is whinging because he has not supplied power!!!! after consulting with mates batfink had a finkmobil,ohh karate would be turning in his animated grave.