Supermarket control

[shaun spencer]

what are you guys using to control new supermarkets

we have got rid rid of EINSTEIN wooohoooo - hated pushing all those buttons

CPC seems to be gone

last 5 stores (2 more in fall) using MICROTHERM, awesome software, too bad it is done by others (our competition - the TYLER dealer)

[Dan]

Einstein has some bugs yet, but CPC RMCC is the friendliest controller I have seen and it is still showing up on racks. Com-trol works but puts you through a lot of trouble to set it up.

CPC's Ultra-Site is also very user friendly for remote communications and setup. Altech is frozen in time, but still a reliable controller.

Encore was fairly friendly but had some clumsy algorithms for condenser control as I recall. My techs liked it ok. It had a full keyboard which made programming quick.

Haven't worked on Novar in several years, but we are fixing to now that we are doing Wal-marts.

Have yet to see my first Microtherm.

Another interesting development I imagine will become quite common will be the electronic EPR stepping valve. We get to commission our first store early next year.

In general I see tremendous improvement regarding the reliability of all controllers. Thank God, too.

[shaun spencer]

Dan , you guy are putting the microtherm in, we get our Hussmann Penthouses with all Microtherm cct boards

[Dan]

Hahaha. I have no doubt, Shaun. But I see the distribution of controllers to be geographic and customer specific. Controllers are largely specked by the customer or consultant. Up your way you see lots of Danfoss also, I presume. I have not seen any of them either.

I once mentioned to somebody that there are many more similarities between electronic controllers than there are differences.

CPC reigns in Florida, with Com-trol and Novar a second place. What is better than CPC compared to microtherm? Never know, I might have to step up to one and punch its buttons.

[Andy]

Hi Dan, Shaun
I think I heard some of my friend shouting microtechs praises.
Me I am out of the supermarket loop completely, but ocasionally I come across controller which have crossed into the Industrial side.
Danfoss is one, very good but time consumming to setup. Elm is another, but basic in what it will control. Another is Radford, this is common fit to all 14 of one of my customers sites, on anything from pumped NH3 to condensing units. Basically there is only a few main boards and all the configuration is by dip switches, flick a few switches and you have a pumped chill or a -22c deed freeze. There are loads of other parameters to play with, but fit the board, flick the switches and set the defrosts and she will run.
Radford Controls
CPC controllers there's a few of these about mainly on packs and usually of an older vintage, befrore the UK started making their own controllers, having said that I have never had the need to work on a CPC controller that had broken down, so that says something.
Regards. Andy

[condenseddave]

Danfoss, predominantly in the Northeast.

I see Rmcc's from time to time, and I like them. Costco seems to swear by them. I've never sworn at them! I just wish Costco would use them for more than suction pressure controllers and defrost clocks!

I've installed a couple Einstein CPCs, and have been consistently disappointed.

I was told ELM was out of business, Andy. The A&P chain was using them, but switched to Danfoss a year or so ago. Is that true, or was I fed a line?

I really did like the ELMs.

[condenseddave]

Andy, your Radford link is broken.

[Dan]

I just wish Costco would use them for more than
suction pressure controllers and defrost clocks!

If you are talking about temperature control, I couldn't disagree more. Maybe with stepper valves, but certainly not with suction stop or liquid line solenoid cycling. Defrost termination, maybe ok. More alarm points, definitely good.

What the Costco's are only beginning to take advantage of is remote communications. Which I expect to happen in a larger way shortly. I find Ultra-site the most user friendly remote interface on the market.

The next wave of change in large chains is secure control over all set points from a remote monitoring station. This makes sense from a corporate level but is extremely frustrating to a technician who cannot get through the night by making changes. Properly handled by the monitoring station, I must admit it is the way of the future for all the right reasons, no matter how much I despise the transition.

[condenseddave]

Dan, I don't know about the rest of the chain, but the eight or ten that I used to do work in had absolutely no temperature sensors in them. That alone is a waste, IMO.

There seems to be quite a refrigerant control valve combination mixture in the "newer" stores, everything from SORITs; SORIT-PIs;LLSV; and SSSVs. None of the ones I've been in used steppers. (It's been over a year.)

I'm not following you on your dislike of DDC control for solenoids. It seems to me that it's a much better way to go than electromechanical control. What am I missing? Of course, there is no real benefit to monitoring temp in the EPR controlled systems, as long as they're set correctly. I've seen other stores (different chains) utilize DDC for LLSV control, with no real problems. Can't recall seeing any SSSV systems cmoputer controlled, but, then, I don't run into too many of them.

Their alarming system, in this area, at least, is deplorable. Three different occurences come to mind, with multiple compressor failures, due to a lack of a high suction alarm.

You know the drill, a valve plate blows on the LT22 end, goes unnoticed for a day or two, until the one next to it goes.

Had one store lose all three on one rack before the store called with a problem. The only reason they found THAT, I firmly believe, is that the oil fail switch set off the police light on top of the wall in the mezzanine.

The other rack held the box temps. Thank God!

I have an older version of ultrasite, from way back when I took care of a chain that closed its' stores in this region. It is a dandy program. I have a lot of problems with CNET for windows, and revert back to the old CNET (dos) regularly.

That's enough ranting and raving for one night, I guess. Just curious about the control thing.

[Garth]

In answer to the question asked by condenseddave. The Elm system installed in various A&P Stores in many states in the US in the late 90's is still alive and kicking and now trades under the Honeywell banner.Honeywell aquired Elm about four years ago.The Honeywell-Elm system is still widely used in commercial and industrial applications all over the UK and Europe.

[shaun spencer]

installed ultra site on my home computer a couple weeks ago for a store i picked up
was a bitch to set up

the micotherm uses pcanywhere and is much easier to use

IMHO

[stevenj]

all this talk on controllers reminded me,, does anyone have the new back door formula for cpc reflecs controllers?
the old ()x()T= doesn't work on the newer controls

[condenseddave]

Originally posted by shaun spencer
installed ultra site on my home computer a couple weeks ago for a store i picked up
was a bitch to set up

the micotherm uses pcanywhere and is much easier to use

IMHO

Are you using a new version? V32 works great on this. It's one of the easier ones I've used. CNET for windows, now that's a pain.

[Dan]

installed ultra site on my home computer a couple weeks ago for a store i picked up.
was a bitch to set up

the micotherm uses pcanywhere and is much easier to use

IMHO

Am I the ony one having a problem pasting a complete quotation here?

Nonetheless. I find it hard to imagine Ultra-site being a bitch to set up. Hussmann had a primitive controller that used a generic file sharing program such as PC anywhere. Primitive is the operative word.

I have been around the block with remote monitoring and I must maintain my position that Ultra-site and the CPC RMCC is by far the most user friendly and flexible program yet available in our trade. Microtherm has a long way to go.

Oh, Condenseddave, my apologies. I never answered your 2002 question.

I may have gone too far to condemn liquid line solenoid control in my diatribe against using a rack controller to control temperatures. My focus was on using suction stop valves to control temperature.

I was not so much condemning electronic control as I was condemning "all off, all on" control of temperatures with parallel racks. This sort of control wreaks unnecessary havoc to the compressor rack.

But monitoring temperatures is an invaluable tool that electronic controls provide... and further, with the new electric EPR valves, I am willing to let the electronic controllers control temperatures. Costco's are retrofitting their stores with temperature probes, by the way.

[condenseddave]

Originally posted by Dan
Am I the ony one having a problem pasting a complete quotation here?

Dunno. Looks like the whole thing came up here...

Originally posted by Dan

Nonetheless. I find it hard to imagine Ultra-site being a bitch to set up. Hussmann had a primitive controller that used a generic file sharing program such as PC anywhere. Primitive is the operative word.

I have been around the block with remote monitoring and I must maintain my position that Ultra-site and the CPC RMCC is by far the most user friendly and flexible program yet available in our trade. Microtherm has a long way to go.

I really can't add to this. I have three stores that use CPC, and 60 that use Danfoss. CNET for windows is a real pain compared to Ultrasite.

Originally posted by Dan

Oh, Condenseddave, my apologies. I never answered your 2002 question.

No problem, I don't remember to come look half the time.

Originally posted by Dan

I may have gone too far to condemn liquid line solenoid control in my diatribe against using a rack controller to control temperatures. My focus was on using suction stop valves to control temperature.

I was not so much condemning electronic control as I was condemning "all off, all on" control of temperatures with parallel racks. This sort of control wreaks unnecessary havoc to the compressor rack.

But monitoring temperatures is an invaluable tool that electronic controls provide... and further, with the new electric EPR valves, I am willing to let the electronic controllers control temperatures. Costco's are retrofitting their stores with temperature probes, by the way.

I agree 100% with this.

I'm glad to see they've come to their senses. Now, if they'd get away from Trane's proprietary monitoring system, and get on with a LON monitoring system, the world would be a better place!

[condenseddave]

Originally posted by Garth
In answer to the question asked by condenseddave. The Elm system installed in various A&P Stores in many states in the US in the late 90's is still alive and kicking and now trades under the Honeywell banner.Honeywell aquired Elm about four years ago.The Honeywell-Elm system is still widely used in commercial and industrial applications all over the UK and Europe.

Hey, thanks. I haven't seen one of this genre yet. A&P went to Danfoss, then I started my own company, and I'm not union, sooooo....