Multisplit fault

[back2space]

Guys,

Another fault now it seems... having had the return air sensors replaced sensors to remote sensors on the LG multisplit of mine there is now a new problem come to light.

The bedroom unit seems to have developed a problem in that when the living room is switched on and is at thermostat on & when the bedroom unit is thermostat off the unit should sample the air by running the fan every minute for 10-20 seconds or so until the heat is cleared from the coil and the coil sensor detects the coil is cooler again it goes off again sampling the air again later.

Obviously only if the coil is upto temp otherwise it doesnt do this... All good so far. However after the first 10minutes of the units being turned on its doing the air sampling correctly, fan on for 20seconds then fan off for another minute but after a while the bedroom unit seems to stick on air sampling mode and the fan continues to run blowing warm air continuiously (despite thermostat off) due to EEV valves being opening slightly continual blowing of warm air is heating the room up .

If I put the set point to 16C from 22C this doesnt make any difference. Its as if the coil being warm is causing the fan to run continuously and the coil is staying above the cold air prevention point. Set point of 18C room temp is reaching 25C with the constant fan running air sampling.


Its not the remote sensor i installed as if I have the bedroom unit only switched on cuts in and out fine. Also if I change the fan speed from high to low the fan stays on low which if the unit was calling for heat the fan would switch to high so I know its not the sensors. We have also swapped sensors round to the living room and problem stays with the unit.

I am wondering why the fan is continually running on the bedroom unit even after thermostat off. This is more than the air sampling its just continually running. If I turn the lounge unit off though the bedroom unit then goes off and as the coil goes cold the fan shuts off then. Its as if due to the coil being warm the fan is running all time despite unit being in thermostat off.

Normally in air sampling the fan starts and you can feel a blast of warm air but after 10seconds or so you feel the air start to get cooler then cold air prevention kicks in due to low circulation of refrigerant and then the fan cycles off again till the next air sample is due a minute later this is causing lots of residual heat to be released into the room with the room temp continually rising unless I turn the unit off.

The air blowing during the air sampling does not get cooler so its as if there is higher than normal refrigerant circulating inside the unit? Could the EEV be opening too far allowing more refrigerant to circulate and a higher coil temp?

The bedroom unit if switched on its own works fine and cuts out on thermostat off.

The unit is not on High Ceiling mode nor does the compressor seem to speed up when this is happening.

I can never get any response from the installer and no other engineers will work on another installers install as its under warranty so I dont know what to do.

Any ideas?

[back2space]

Has been fine all day then when I go back in the bedroom tonight room temp is 23C and fan is just constantly blowing luke warm air. Set point is 20C.

Living room unit is at 20C and seems to be struggling to heat.

Notice hendrag hasnt been in touch again and also I have emailed LG and no response from them!

WIsh I had never got this equipment a bloody fan heater would have been better control

[back2space]

*********************

[airefresco]

You´ve probably already tried this, but have you switched the power off to the unit (everything) for a minute or so, then restarted. Worth a shot.

Another thing to try. again unlikely to be this, but swap the sensor from the two rooms around, to prove it´s not a faulty sensor.

[al]

Backspace

Bit off the wall, but have you accidently activated the emergency heat/cool option?? i used to do this when first installing high walls, previous suggestion of power off should clear this but of course it's an lg!!

Al

[back2space]

You´ve probably already tried this, but have you switched the power off to the unit (everything) for a minute or so, then restarted. Worth a shot.

Another thing to try. again unlikely to be this, but swap the sensor from the two rooms around, to prove it´s not a faulty sensor.

Yes power has been switched off this morning for half an hour the powered up, ran fine all day but tonight is playing up.

Did the same last night.

Will be working ok again tmrw during the day and then come night time will mess up again.

There are no fancy controls its just an infra red controller.

ITs deffo not the sensor as this has been swapped over with the lounge unit and the fault stays with the unit.

The thing is the unit is thermostat off because when the unit is thermostat off the fan speed will go down to low from high and will sample the air occasionally from whatever its set at.

I have put the fan speed back to high and the fan speed is staying on low.

Living room unit doesnt have this fault.

[back2space]

Backspace

Bit off the wall, but have you accidently activated the emergency heat/cool option?? i used to do this when first installing high walls, previous suggestion of power off should clear this but of course it's an lg!!

Al

HI Al

Unit is not on emergency operation. I have been asleep all day (im a night worker) so system has just been left turned on and then I woke up and room was really warm.

You see the air sensing operation only works if the coil is warm and because less refrigerant is circulating on units that are thermostat off, fan cycles on for about 20 seconds and when the little bit of heat in the coil is blown out and the coil cools the fan cycles back off to avoid cold air prevention unit is then in standby until it samples the air again. THis works during the day but the last two nights fan is staying on its as if the coil is staying warm or too much refrigerant is flowing through the coil meaning it isnt cooling down enough for cold air prevention mechanism to kick in.

If i switch off the lounge unit that is always on a higher set point the outdoor unit switches off and the bedroom unit then goes onto standby as the coil has no refirgerant circulating then due to outdoor unit being off. OBviously if this unit was calling for heat and it was a problem with the return sensor it would not go onto standby when i switched the lounge unit off.

Have also noticed that if only one unit out of the 2 is switched on the wattage drawn is higher than if I have both units switched on & one of the units is in standby the wattage drawn goes down.

Have still had no response from LG to my email.

[Mac1]

HI Al

You see the air sensing operation only works if the coil is warm and because less refrigerant is circulating on units that are thermostat off, fan cycles on for about 20 seconds and when the little bit of heat in the coil is blown out and the coil cools the fan cycles back off to avoid cold air prevention unit is then in standby until it samples the air again. THis works during the day but the last two nights fan is staying on its as if the coil is staying warm or too much refrigerant is flowing through the coil meaning it isnt cooling down enough for cold air prevention mechanism to kick in.

If i switch off the lounge unit that is always on a higher set point the outdoor unit switches off and the bedroom unit then goes onto standby as the coil has no refirgerant circulating then due to outdoor unit being off. OBviously if this unit was calling for heat and it was a problem with the return sensor it would not go onto standby when i switched the lounge unit off.

Have still had no response from LG to my email.

Your email was received yesterday, we spoke on the matter this morning.

As discussed, in heating mode the LEV's in any off cycle units remain slightly open to assist Oil return, this is true with all manufacturers Multi-Split Systems.
I believe the Lounge unit is under-sized and the Bedroom unit may be oversized for the room loads. Given the very cold weather this past week, the Lounge unit is not achieving set-point and the hot gas passing through the Bedroom unit is sufficient enough to raise the coil temperature and keep the fan running. The fan will not switch off until the coil heat is dissipated.

I hope our discussion has given you a better understanding on the way the system operates. I don't understand why your last blog states you've had no response from LG, when quite clearly we spoke first thing this morning.

[back2space]

The last blog was written at 12:25am half an hour after midnight.

Having just spoke to you on the phone... The lounge unit is very much so struggling. The lounge unit is 3.5kw and is in a smaller room than the bedroom, bedroom is 22C at present with set point of 18C... you have explained the reason for this which is risidual heat so thats ok.

I am at a loss as to why you say its undersized, as per the combination tables with an indoor ambient of 20C and outdoor of 0.5 I should have 3.52kw of heat coming from the unit. At 7C outdoor temp it has 3.90kw rated capacity, surely a drop of 452watts is not enough for the unit not to be able to heat above 20C

Previously before getting the a/c installed a 2kw fan heater was used in this room to heat it up and with an outdoor temp of -3 this was still sufficient.

This managed fine and temps could be raised to about 24C any higher and it was too hot.

I do not think a response of "take it all out and install electric storage heaters" is what LG should be promoting. Especially when you cant explain why the unit is failing to heat a room up but a 2kw fan heater is managing it no problem.

Its strange as having just turned the bedroom unit off at the remote control which has been in standby (thermostat off state) all day and the fan coming on occasionaly to get rid of heat from the coil as you explained. The air off temp from the lounge unit has increased by about 5C and wattage drawn has also gone up from 1067watts to 1402watts when only 1 unit is operating. Air off temp with only 1 unit switched on is 43C. However if both units are switched on but only 1 unit is calling for heat the air off temp drops to 36, its this drop in air off temp where the performance seems to be getting lost. WHy would the outdoor unit slow down if 2 units are switched on and only one is in standby but speed up if only one unit is physically switched on?

WHat could the reason be for this?

Please explain...

[back2space]

No dedication to customer service whatsoever!

[p_p]

Send Hendrag a pm, see if you get a response then.

PP

[back2space]

Have done. The reply above was from Ken who works in the helpdesk.

Not heard anything else after my last request, only that I should pull the system out and put in electric storage heaters!!!

[p_p]

You should have gone for mitsi electric from day one, we install lots of it, install it correctly and it will give years of trouble free service.
Its a shame HENDRAG never got back to you himself, he's actually a top guy in the industry and very well respected.

Good Luck


PP

[back2space]

Yes I know begginning to regret it!

To get one of LGs engineers out costs £300!!!

I think under circumstances they should send one to me anyway since installer gone AWOL.

[p_p]

That would be a good gesture on LG's behalf, who knows maybe hendrag might pick up these posts and take the bull by the horns so to speak.


PP

[p_p]

If these units are in warranty, surely there is some comeback on the distributor, most have there own tech support now aswell as the manufacturers, thats of course if you know who the distributor was.
Just a thought!

PP

[back2space]

If these units are in warranty, surely there is some comeback on the distributor, most have there own tech support now aswell as the manufacturers, thats of course if you know who the distributor was.
Just a thought!

PP

yes I know who the distributor was, they quoted me £40 for each remote sensor when I got them for £18 through lgcomfort cooling.

Got someone coming tmrw to clean the coils hes going to check everything for me and speak on my behalf to LG as im going to put everything to him.

[back2space]

That would be a good gesture on LG's behalf, who knows maybe hendrag might pick up these posts and take the bull by the horns so to speak.


PP

Doubt it very much! It was a fleeting visit from him last week to the forum I think... hes ran for the hills!

What gets me is how he bangs on in a/c magazines about "getting it right for the customer" and how extra time with the customer sorting issues out and concerns goes a long way in customer service. Well its true it does but LG clearly are wrong about this as they have not come out to discuss problems etc.

[l'robot]

Hendrag is too busy writing blogs titled "Oh stop complaining" to reply!
http://www.heatingandventilating.net...ntry.asp?id=77

[p_p]

Hi Back2space

How did you get on?



PP

[back2space]

Hi Back2space

How did you get on?



PP

With LG... Non existant

With the units... waiting for a competent engineer to arrive any time, someone old style who is going to actually look into my problem.

I am getting comms errors cominig up a lot as well even if the units are turned off.

So hes going to look into it all for me as well asgive the units a clean on the outdoor coil.

[p_p]

Lat us know how you get on, what/If they find anything wrong.
Are you an engineer yourself.

Good Luck



PP

[back2space]

Will do! Keep you all posted!

[p_p]

Back2space.

Check you pm.


PP

[back2space]

Have replied mate!

[back2space]

Oh and im not an engineer I work in a facilities helpdesk.

[AbsoluteWDJ]

Hi back2space...I haven't read the whole history of your problem and i just quickly browsed this issue but at any point after installation did you receive a commission report from the installer? Or has anyone since worked on the refrigerant...(reclaiming or adding) I apologize if this has been discussed and i'm personally not a fan of LG. Have you been having issues from day one of install? If so, I would probably start with reclaiming and measuring, nitrogen test, deep vacuum or triple and recharging the correct amount into the system. Are you on speaking terms with the installer?

[back2space]

No the installer is avoiding me, I have had to have him back out a few times each time he denies any problem and just wanted to be off.

However I have since had 3 diff engineers from diff companies all who agree its not behaving correctly.

On cooling it seems to be fine but on heating is where we develop the problems.

The latest engineer who has come out to look at it is a member on here p_p and he spent 2 hours looking at the system.

he says the system is not controlling correct... refrigerant charge etc is fine. He is going to ring LG technical tmrw and request they send one of their engineers, could be a PCB fault in outdoor unit.

[AbsoluteWDJ]

No the installer is avoiding me, I have had to have him back out a few times each time he denies any problem and just wanted to be off.

However I have since had 3 diff engineers from diff companies all who agree its not behaving correctly.

On cooling it seems to be fine but on heating is where we develop the problems.

The latest engineer who has come out to look at it is a member on here p_p and he spent 2 hours looking at the system.

he says the system is not controlling correct... refrigerant charge etc is fine. He is going to ring LG technical tmrw and request they send one of their engineers, could be a PCB fault in outdoor unit.

First i would question why the installer is avoiding you...If you have a problem with what they've supplied and installed...It shouldn't just be your problem it's theirs as well....They hold any warrenty. Did you receive any commission report? The situation your in is a middle man predicament....The installer will point to LG and LG will point to the installer! If you can get an LG engineer out to you with out charge then go for it....If you can get the LG and installation engineer together then even better...Remember...You've paid!! It's either bad design/install or a problem with the equipment but you've got to make sure it's not design/install otherwise the LG engineer will walk all over it! Like I say, in my experience LG sometimes defy all logic but if they (the engineer) represent the product, they are hardly going to admite to their employers to be the problem.....Have some evidence my friend!

[back2space]

Ive had someone very reputable out who has checked all that over.

He said it wasnt the best installation but it is functional and no crossed wires/pipes etc.

So the problem is with the outdoor unit for sure.

The installer did it as a favour for me in exchange for me to put their name round my work due to me working in facilities manamagent we look after a/c and refrigeration etc.

SInce then due to the wash out of summer we had he either got no work etc. But he did it as a favour and as result made no money on the install. SO for him being a director of company he wont keep coming out.

I ring and ring and ring and leave messages, promises to call back but never does.

[AbsoluteWDJ]

Ive had someone very reputable out who has checked all that over.

He said it wasnt the best installation but it is functional and no crossed wires/pipes etc.

So the problem is with the outdoor unit for sure.

The installer did it as a favour for me in exchange for me to put their name round my work due to me working in facilities manamagent we look after a/c and refrigeration etc.

SInce then due to the wash out of summer we had he either got no work etc. But he did it as a favour and as result made no money on the install. SO for him being a director of company he wont keep coming out.

I ring and ring and ring and leave messages, promises to call back but never does.

Who brought the system?

[back2space]

He did from distributor Dean & Wood.

[AbsoluteWDJ]

If you are sure its a problem with the outdoor unit....control side, then by all means get LG to investigate. I would have the installer there though because they are the people who hold the warrenty that you are entitled too

[back2space]

When i rang installer i left message and rather than him call his secretary rang and she said that the parts warranty can be dealt with by any contractor and not just him however i would have to pay contractor for their labour.

[Electrocoolman]

Perhaps you've 'cried wolf' too often?

[back2space]

Perhaps you've 'cried wolf' too often?

No I woudnt say that at all. I have repeatedly rang him about the same fault since i got the system he thinks im imaginging it or something as he came out and spent about 5minutes checkin system and said it was ok. But the guy who came out off the forum spent 2 hours testing it and agreed from start that the system is not working correctly as have the other engineers who attended.

The very first time i called him out was over one of the return air sensors, it was out of calibration by about 2C. So if i set 21C it reached 19C First response from LG when i contacted them was it is not close control you will have to adjust the temp. SO if you want 21, YOu have to set to 23! What a load of tosh, i complained and the installer then rang LG and was told the sensor needed replacing, so the sensor was replaced and cooling mode works fine on said unit.

Its simply not good enough im really getting stressed by it all it seems to be is excuses after excuses they need to listen as the LG reputation is going to be dirt otherwise,, especially on a forum.

Now with all the problems above i cannot believe i was told by ken at lG technical "YOU SHOULD RIP THE UNITS OUT AND PUT STORAGE HEATERS IN"

Perhaps that should be said to every customer wonder how long that will last for.

This apauling service that I have receieved from LG has been passed onto friends and other engineers who all agree that there is a fault and that its discusting how this is being dealt with.

I would never reccomend LG to anyone in fact the forum is riddled with complaints about LG equipment and service etc. So I dont think its a one off is it.

They will always be Lucky Goldstar with service as it is.

P_P off the forum who visited is speaking to LG tmrw as he received an email from Graham Hendra saying " to contact technical support who will be abe to help"

So lets see how far he gets with it!

[RedEye]

LOL, Ken used to be the tech guy for Dean & Wood!

[back2space]

Its bloody rediculous, there saying it falls back on the installer but ive had 2 independant engineers out who all agree there is a control problem. Ken says that there poss maybe a problem but its upto the engineer to diagnose the problem!

IM A FUMING at the mo, companies just passing the book!

WORST COMPANY I HAVE EVER DEALT WITH!

[back2space]

removed as in talks with installer at present.

[nike123]

It appears that you promised some contract, that you are unable to ensure, to guy who acquired you AC unit below market price and made instalation for no compensation except for expected contract.

You get what you pay for! In this case you got something for nothing.

You did not pay full price, and you did not get full service.
He thinks (with right) that you did not complete your part of agreement and you are left without support, which is, by me, civilised minimum what he could do.

I think you should stop being scanty (you should afford it, since you saved at instalation and purchase price), and pay for new part and labor, to establish with certainty, that you have faulty control (as suggested by two technicians) and, if that is the really the case, ask for reimbursement as proposed by that guy Mark.

If that is not the case, you should live with badly designed product like many, many other customers of al kinds of products around the world, or you could sue LG at court that he sells products that are not conforming to their specifications.

[airefresco]

You´ve not removed the company name, they are in the reply to you, second line and last line of the first paragraph. Or is that deliberate?

[back2space]

Airefresco have amended now thanks!

Nike123, whatever I have paid for a system its still under warranty, i never promised a contract and it was a case of I would pass details onto the direct people rather than having to go through the long way round to get in through the doors of our company.

[superswill]

pass me my tin opener,for these worms

[Brian_UK]

Sorry back2space but you still left both company names in your post.

I have edited them out as we do not want public airing of dirty washing.

You have now, unfortunately, come up against the problem of "doing a deal verbally".

Both sides are in disagreement with what was originally said or agreed and I don't believe your paths will cross again.

[back2space]

Sorry back2space but you still left both company names in your post.

I have edited them out as we do not want public airing of dirty washing.

You have now, unfortunately, come up against the problem of "doing a deal verbally".

Both sides are in disagreement with what was originally said or agreed and I don't believe your paths will cross again.

Sorry Brian i should have edited on computer not on PDA as it doesnt looked to have sent request...

[back2space]

pass me my tin opener,for these worms

How very dare you superswill!!! WOuld you rather not have a can opener for a tin of beans or some cat food or something? Much more edible than worms!

[nike123]

Nike123, whatever I have paid for a system its still under warranty, i never promised a contract and it was a case of I would pass details onto the direct people rather than having to go through the long way round to get in through the doors of our company.

The supply and installation of this equipment for you was part of a deal, suggested by you and accepted by me, with the aim of getting $&%$^ onto the ****** sub-contractors list, I supplied the plant at less than cost and installed it at a loss to me, all of this was acceptable to us only with the view of getting us on with %^$&£, this has not happened.

That looks to me as deal and promise.
From his point of view, he has hanged!

Regarding your "erratic unit" and waranty, I did not found it 100% as such in these hundred posts, mostly because there is no systematic approach and measurements made and recorded of qualified person and then published here. It appears that that is also the case with your partner in deal who is carrying waranty.
Someone said "this" and someone said "that" is no way of dealing with complex control logic of unit. That is why I cannot accept these opinions made by you or anyone else in that case as something not disputable.

Since bad deal put you in this situation I proposed you that solution in my previous post as one which is most likely to bring end to this saga.
And, if hapened that you are right, you will be covered for parts.
Labor costs is something what you will probably have to live with.

[back2space]

That looks to me as deal and promise.
From his point of view, he has hanged!

Regarding your "erratic unit" and waranty, I did not found it 100% as such in these hundred posts, mostly because there is no systematic approach and measurements made and recorded of qualified person and then published here. It appears that that is also the case with your partner in deal who is carrying waranty.
Someone said "this" and someone said "that" is no way of dealing with complex control logic of unit. That is why I cannot accept these opinions made by you or anyone else in that case as something not disputable.

Since bad deal put you in this situation I proposed you that solution in my previous post as one which is most likely to bring end to this saga.
And, if hapened that you are right, you will be covered for parts.
Labor costs is something what you will probably have to live with.

Ok well perhaps the engineer may post on here when he has read this to back up that the system not working correctly.

He had pressure gauges, manifolds and measured air off temps and his conclusion was it is not working properly.

But I will leave it for now and see what I hear back from the installer to my response.

Thank you.

[frank]

As I'm sure Abe will confirm, legally, your contract is with the installer who took your money. You do not have any contract with the manufacturer and therefore, they are not obliged to honour any warranty problems that you have.

The warranty is issued by the manufacturer to the installer. Any assistance you are getting from the manufacturer is in good faith only.

If I were you, I would tread carefully when 'calling' or 'slagging' or constantly complaining about the manufacturer on here. They just might wash their hands of you and then you will be in 'stuuck'.

While I sympathise with your situation, it doesn't sound like the installing company have done the best by you, and from what you say the arrangement was based on, it must be asked 'did you keep your part of the bargain?'

Getting peoples backs up is not always helpful and more times than not it leads to a broken working relationship.

I look forward to p_p posting his findings on here.

Good luck with the problem by the way as this type of situation is never nice.

[p_p]

Hi All

I popped in to look at this problem last tuesday as I was working literally down the road.
When the lounge is set to 25c and the bedroom 20c both units are heating fine, air off 40c however when the bedroom reaches setpoint, there appears to be too much refrigerant still entering the coil ( LEV staying open to much )thus keeping the fan running so it keeps heating the room and the air off temp is actually higher 36c than the lounge that is still calling for heating air off 32c.
The outdoor unit winds down to 360psi and the lounge unit struggles to make setpoint, turn the bedroom unit off and outdoor ramps up to 450psi and air off back up to 40c even though room is near setpoint at 24c.
It will continue operating in this manner until the lounge reaches setpoint. Hence bedroom temp 25c
It operates like this on both systems which ever unit is set to the higher setpoint this is the temp both systems will attain, there doesn't appear to be any individual control.
If the bedroom is set to fan only and the lounge to heating, again the bedroom temp will start to rise giving an air off higher than the lounge.The only way to stop this is turn the unit off in the bedroom . ( coil still warms up but fan will not run ).
Another independant engineer has looked at this and agreed the system is not operating correctly.
I have spoken to LG on this matter and they agree there 'appears' to be problem with the system, and I am of the understanding they are now going to investigate.
However as I have stated to Back2space if Lg say this is how our system works then you will just have to live with it ?
We installed 3 multisplit Mitsi's 3 weeks ago and whatever the set point is to each room that is the temp that is maintained so why should Lg be any different.
I think there could be a software problem but we will wait and see what LG come up with.

Regards

PP