display case evaparator fans

[Mark]

hello everyone
A few manufactures have changed from the conventional a/c case evaparator fan motors.
Ive found that the prefered motor is a fixed blade 230v DC motor ,
The advantages are :
1)2 speed (night operation).
2)programming interface for setting of motor speeds (off line).
3)protection class 2 no grounding neccesary.
4)plug in connection (included).
5)high life cycle >40.000 hours due to ball bearings.
6)good acoustics due to anti vibration mount .
7)electronics protected against moisture and cleansing agents.
8)reduced power consumption.
I thought this may be of some interest to the readers of this forum.
regards mark

[chemi-cool]

Hi Mark,
Looks like a good idea. Arent DC motors + the elactronics to change the AC into DC and the better motors, makes the unit more expensive?

chemi

[Mark]

hi chemi cool
The motors i have worked with are manufactured by ebm ziehl .
They come in various speeds for different applications ie 500,1000,1200,RPM all pre programmed at the factory to your requirements.They come with voltage rectifiers on board so all your required to do once installed is plug it in .
I think the reason say large supermarkets have moved to these motors are that they can save money on running costs,over a period of time.
They would not replace a motor of a different type ,they would only be replaced if originally fitted.The price in comparison to the ac motor is nearly the same.
I think the benefits of these motors would be when used in large installations when they reduce kilowatt usage per hour.
regards mark

[Peter_1]

A Belgium company Lemmens Trading has invented a fan for AHU - the ECM motor - also DC, but in the connecting box , there are DIP switches.

You select the desired air volume vuia the DIP switches and the motor of the fan will automatically adapt the speed, in spite of the pressure of the ducts, filters, dampers.

When closing some air outlets, the motor automatically reduces his speed. There is no pressure measuring device, only a current sensing.

When I first saw this (some 7 to 8 years ago I think) I was realy surprised.

Why is no grounding necessary for DC motors?

Mark, I think there are carbon-brushes inside the motor, isn't it?

I also think - never stand still before - that the electrical consumption of the fans is a big load.

The last time I saw DC motors (+/-15 years ago) was on ships for fishery (110 VDC) in Ostend.
The switch-cupboard was something special (build just after WWII I think)

[Mark]

hi peter
The motors are a reasonably modern ring mount fan made by ebm .
class 2 equiptment is which protection against electric shock does not rely on basic insulation but in which additional safety precautions such as supplementary insulation are provided.
I have literature from a supermarket group who say that they have changed to these motors due to there long term savings in power consumption.The motors are a near to identical size to the conventional ring mounted fan motor.
regards mark

[Peter_1]

While surfing on the net: FHP of Florida uses the Belgium ECM motors
http://www.fhp-mfg.com/product_lines/gs.htm

[Dan]

Hi Mark. Interesting topic. I haven't heard of this yet.

The advantages are :
1)2 speed (night operation).

Maybe in reach-ins and walk-ins this makes sense, but I don't see it applying to open display cases. What manufacturers are using these motors? Also, is there a web site for the size and type of motors you are describing?

[Mark]

Hi Dan

How are you?.The two speed motors are used in conjunction with night blinds (mostly used on display cases.)
I dont have any literature on the computer

Kind regards Mark

[Dan]

Of course, with night curtains. Why didn't I think of that? Yes, I would like to know more about them. I am not aware of anybody using them in the states.

[Capt Steve]

The ECM motor is really pretty nice. It alows the service technicians to only carry one motor which is the same for all refrigerated cases. The only thing the service technician has to do is program it for the correct CFM required for that air curtain. Also, they do save energy.
I never thought about the night blind concept with that type fan though. I have tested night blinds and found that you must have some way to let the refrigeration rack know that the blind is in use. If not, the rack will run as if it was an open case, and freeze product that you do not want to freeze. Also, when the case goes into defrost, while the blind is in use, that hot moist air gets trapped in the case. That is with Hot Gas defrost systems.

[botrous]

That's the first time i hear about this type of motor , but it seems to interresting . . .
Does it require electrical circuit to transforme AC to DC ot it is all buit in ?

[Peter_1]

It's all build in the unit.
Have a look at
http://www.lemmens.com/_EN/3_technlogy_tac.htm

a Belgium company who makes these units Click to TAC section.

They also have a very, very good selection program for coils , fans, AHU.
We mostly buy our custom made AHU there. Delivery time is some days.

[Tga frig]

I have been in the case design game for along time and have never seen DC motors in NZ or AUS. EMC motors seem the way to go but they are 3 times the price and deliver higher air flow which can cause problems. Using alternative fan pitchs can over come this. What i seen with night blinds is no real change in temp, but this is using a thermo couple overide in the air discharge to cycle the case if refrigeration is not required. We have been doing this for as long as i can remember with no problems.

[wambat]

The power factor must be very hi for these small motors therefore it would have a higher efficiency and a higher efficiency motor operates at lower temperatures. It generates less heat. Therefore there is less heat which must be removed during the cooling cycle. Lets face it solid state is taking over.

[mccoolair@yahoo]

Is an ECM motor similiar in anyway to an ICM - variable speed blower motor used by Carrier in their 2 Stage gas furnaces?

[Coolman Andy]

I have recently been working on the DC evap fans motors Mark F has been talking about.
They' re very good, easy to work with etc
All new Goerge Barkers cases, purchased by a certain major supermarket chain we do work for, have it in their Spec. now. New cases all fitted with them.

[Dan]

"I think the reason say large supermarkets have moved to these motors are that they can save money on running costs,over a period of time.
They would not replace a motor of a different type ,they would only be replaced if originally fitted.The price in comparison to the ac motor is nearly the same."

Perhaps it is the USA who is stodgy these days. The price of ECM's is still triple that of shaded poles, and the life-time costs versus repair and failure are considered a negative proposition, at least with the maintenance managers that I deal with. If it is in warranty, I replace it with an ECM. If it is out of warranty, I replace it with a shaded pole motor. This is by directive from the customer.

I think the supermarket buyers and engineers need to communicate more with their maintenance managers. I have to admit, the reliability of ECM motors has improved tremendously in the few years that I have been seeing them.

[kengineering]

Quote:




The advantages are :
1)2 speed (night operation).

Hello All, We have had problems with night blinds causing the freezing and sweating thing. Sounds like it 's certainly worth a look see. Thanks for the news.
Ken

[DeB]

You can use a night set back thermostat with blinds. This changes the case set point to a higher value at night and further reduces energy consumption

[spr2003]

I noticed these motors allows to decrease the general electric consumption, even if at the starting they need a bigger switch or fuse, cause they have a very short moment when they absorbe a bit more courrent than AC ones.

[r600a-bang]

Hello,
I am currently testing the EBM EC fan motor for use in OEM commercial refrigeration. these fans are saving around 1kwh over 24 hours (per fan) when used as a evaporator motors. the energy saving also comes from the fan motor not emitting as much heat as a normal ringmounted fan

ELCO also make a EC motor that is cheaper but tests are showing that you get what you pay for!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Elliza]

hi guys! i'm elliza from indonesia
wow very long time i'm not posting on this forum, so i'm back
right now i'm still study at university n still struggle with my final project! n i've some a problem about the theoritical HC-12 refrigerants n thermodynamic properties, does anyone know about it? coz in indonesia, hc-12 doesn't familliar so i've got idea to used that fluid for my research, but i couldn't done it if i don't know all information about hc-12, does anyone want to help me solved my problem? thanks

[Mark]

Hi Elizza

Hope your not working to hard, welcome back

Kind regards.

Mark

[not tamed]

Originally Posted by MarkFiddy

hello everyone
A few manufactures have changed from the conventional a/c case evaparator fan motors.
Ive found that the prefered motor is a fixed blade 230v DC motor ,
The advantages are :
1)2 speed (night operation).
2)programming interface for setting of motor speeds (off line).
3)protection class 2 no grounding neccesary.
4)plug in connection (included).
5)high life cycle >40.000 hours due to ball bearings.
6)good acoustics due to anti vibration mount .
7)electronics protected against moisture and cleansing agents.
8)reduced power consumption.
I thought this may be of some interest to the readers of this forum.
regards mark

yeah its just to bad that they dont work though

[Elliza]

thx mark you safe my life! oh i'm so despreat to found it! ok i will check on it, btw finally i could back again heehee...

[US Iceman]

For those people who have been using the ECM motors in display cases; what type of problems have you seen or found?

I'm only looking for actual problems that have been found or observed after a period of time. Problems with retrofits would be helpful also.

Thanks.

[750 Valve]

Found 3 sitting in the plantroom of a r744 store I commissioned about a year ago, all 3 seemed to have seized, or at least were binding really bad, don't know what the symptoms were though, just saw them lying there after being replaced - they were out of MT cases. Were used in one speed only (2000rpm), I guess that's not a ringing endorsement for them but you usually don't change evap fan motors that quick. Give them a few years and they'll drop like flies over here, the two big chains are really hot and cold with their case cleaning schedules and I can see the little USB ports filling with water easy (even though its a waterproof plug).

[Frigidsicle]

I am a District HVAC/R tech for wal-mart and we have required all our suppliers going forward to use ecm motors. These include Hill Phoenix, Hussmann, Carrier(Tyler), and Kysor Warren. In our stores we sub-meter the racks and the HVAC panels and have noticed a 50% on average power reduction on the affected circuits. These have the potential to save quite a bit of money over the long term. The cost is a little higher compared to a 9 watt conventional motor $75USD versus $30USD.

[peterwatson4]

Originally Posted by MarkFiddy

Hi Dan

How are you?.The two speed motors are used in conjunction with night blinds (mostly used on display cases.)George Barker- Bradford- uk.
I dont have any literature on the computer however the paper version i can scan and send you if you like .

Kind regards Mark

Hi Mark ,

Been looking at this sticky for some time now.

I would be very interested to read the paper version as you mentioned.

Having worked with G. Barker cases for more years than I care to remember, I can't say I ever saw the dual speed (in conjunction with night blinds)evapoator fan operation you mentioned.

I am familiar with the multi-speed fans that they use, but as far as I know they are set with a laptop computer at one speed only (usualy in the factory) depending on the model of case used.

I dont know of a case/ night blind controller that has the ability to change this pre-set but would be interested to hear about it. (maybe so would G Barkers )



Kind regards

Peter

[ecnil]

Hi everybody, I just joined the forum, since I have a "green soul" and I am approaching the proposal for ecm motors. It seems Mark has a good experience on them. I found out five major actors in this field: GE, ebm, ELCO, Wellington and Morrill. Would you help in understanding differences and advantages?

Thanks
Gianluca

[chillled]

These dc motors still can't swim, if you get a blocked drain they go bang in style as the rectifier board is below the motor in the elco ones, the only problem i've had is that they usually trip the whole island rather than just stopping like the old ones did

[EnergySavings]

Our company has installed (retro fit) several thousand of these energy efficient motors. We have used GE ECM by Regal Beloit, Morrill Motors (recently purchased by Regal Beloit) and EBM Papst products. We have performed extensive measurement and validation testing on these motors and rack compressor systems.

You can expect to see energy efficient reach-in, walk-in and condensor motors in 2008. Maybe even hand held wireless programmers.

Plastic blades sometimes break in freezers.

Some motors make an unaccepatble sound at low speeds.

Sealed bearings and potted electronics help some motors survive exposure to water. One can be placed in a bucket of water and still run. (Don't do this at home)

Some motors are 3/8" to 1/2" taller than the motors they replace sometimes causing the motor/blade to sit too high and/or require a special bracket. This is why I prefer the complete one piece drop in replacement type over those which reuse the blade and mounting hardware.

When programming motors in a retrofit situation it is important to match the volumetric air flow. (Remember that RPM...not blade choice is the only way to match the air flow.) This usually involves reducing the speed which saves more energy and allows more quiet operation.

In the future walk-in motors will feature 2 speeds running on low speed when refrigerant is not flowing through the coil.

I could write more but my phone keeps ringing and its getting late.

[ozairman]

Originally Posted by 750 Valve

Found 3 sitting in the plantroom of a r744 store I commissioned about a year ago, all 3 seemed to have seized, or at least were binding really bad, don't know what the symptoms were though, just saw them lying there after being replaced -

Hey temprite, when you say seized/binding did they feel sort of rough as if they were poling or sort of cogging? I have noticed on DC condenser fan motors used in aircon units that when the motors fail they tend to tighten up not sure of the mechanism of how this works but it is a symptom. The condensers fan ones out of the japanese units can be tested tho as they receive their high volt and control DC power from the outdoor control pcb and it is easy to identify what lead does what. I have never seen the cabinet fans how are they connected and supplied power?

[Ancillotto]

Hi, an other reason to use EC fas is the energy consumption reduction. You move from 35/28W to 12W for the electronic motor.

[750 Valve]

Originally Posted by ozairman

Hey temprite, when you say seized/binding did they feel sort of rough as if they were poling or sort of cogging? I have noticed on DC condenser fan motors used in aircon units that when the motors fail they tend to tighten up not sure of the mechanism of how this works but it is a symptom. The condensers fan ones out of the japanese units can be tested tho as they receive their high volt and control DC power from the outdoor control pcb and it is easy to identify what lead does what. I have never seen the cabinet fans how are they connected and supplied power?

Sorry mate, just saw this - yes they felt like small cogs inside the motor, the new ones didn't, they were smooth. As far as connection goes its just a 240v connection from a lead prewired to the motor.

[fridg]

Originally Posted by DeB

You can use a night set back thermostat with blinds. This changes the case set point to a higher value at night and further reduces energy consumption

Coca Cola in LA make a controller that actually learns how the cooler is used and it keeps learning over time to come up with the best conditions to power down the cooler.

http://www.thecoca-colacompany.com/p...reenpeace.html


Elstat Electronics, Ltd develop an energy management system we call EMS-55. This special piece of software contained in the equipment learns how a cooler is used, and it adjusts the operation, in order to become more efficient.

For example, when a vending machine is typically not being used on a weekend, it turns the refrigeration system right down. And the energy savings are really significant.

[matt.yelland]

Hi all,

Im just about to go and take part in a retro fit, this weekend, changing from a/c to d/c. Will keep you all posted with any problems i have

[EDDC]

i have used several of these DC fans in other applications & they hold up quite well. i kind of prefer the EBM.
as far as i know none have brushes & are electronically commutated. seems to work well & long.

regards;
eddc

[xihan]

thanks good info!!

[Ivy]

It's truly possible. We are axial fan manufacturer and now we have the fan type which have two speed and temperature control(speed can be controlled as different temperature). Also one type specialise for commercial refrigeration in supermarket: the speed will increase as the temperature decreased -10C, and speed can be slow down when the temperature increased, this design is in order to avoid the freezing for the condensor. Of course, we also have other intelligence type if you are interested. Welcome to contact me: xh_0828@hotmail if you are truly have interested in such kind of axial fan.

[Ivy]

Originally Posted by Ivy

It's truly possible. We are axial fan manufacturer and now we have the fan type which have two speed and temperature control(speed can be controlled as different temperature). Also one type specialise for commercial refrigeration in supermarket: the speed will increase as the temperature decreased -10C, and speed can be slow down when the temperature increased, this design is in order to avoid the freezing for the condensor. Of course, we also have other intelligence type if you are interested. Welcome to contact me: xh_0828@hotmail if you are truly have interested in such kind of axial fan.

sorry made a mistake, email should be

[NIKK38]

I see these fans a lot in JS cases. When they fail, we have to replace them with multi-fits because of the price difference. If JS are using these fans in order to save money on running costs over an extended period, they need to make an allowance in the service contract for like for like replacement. It's hard enough as it is to make any money on service contracts without having to fit expensive parts.

[amer]

thanks for this useful inforaton..
could u please give me some companies tat produce thise dc motors???

[EnergySavings]

In Europe EBM Papst is a good supplier of efficient evaporator fan motors. They are more expensive but well worth it because the energy savings are very high. 1) reduced inputpower, 2) reduced compressor load 3) reduced peak demand

[Ancillotto]

Elco could be a good althernative

[tday99]

I recently attended a course explaining ECM's and was very enlightened.
The site thedealertoolbox will explain all of the hows anyone will have.(I can't post an URL because I haven't made more than 15 posts yet).
The best vids are in the training section.
There's also a whole lot of technical articles, and comparison charts.
Well worth the time.
-T

[lowcool]

why have bearings in a moist enviroment,i go for sleeve bushes depending on application

[eskikasa]

hi all thx for useful info
but I want to check all details, so anyone can please post a link to these fans' manufacturer's website?

[tonyhavcr]

I think this is the web page that tday99 wanted to post

http://www.thedealertoolbox.com/refretrofit.php

[amer]

hi...

please can u help me to find used cabinets in europe(arneg-costan-...)

thank