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Thread: Consider this...
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14-07-2008, 08:16 PM #1
Consider this...
If you were to go back in time and show an electronic/digital wrist watch to someone from the middle ages, what would they think?
Would you be held by the grand inquisitor for questioning?
Would you be burned at the stake or stoned or some other creative way of attempting to modify behavior?
What might prompt these reactions?
Well.... obviously the amazing item would be considered as a heretical object. It does something as if by magic (which is bad!) Does that make this something we should not use or consider evil?
What is magic and why is it bad?
Magic is.... something that cannot be explained. If you can't explain it then how does it work?
And, if it cannot be explained does this make it a bad proposition to consider for your use?
See any similarities in our business or today's world?
If all else fails, ask for help.
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14-07-2008, 09:31 PM #2
Re: Consider this...
Too many rhetorical questions!
We try to stone you here every day, haven't you noticed? Maybe we should throw stones harder!
Magic works without expanations if you explain it then it doesn't work!
You mean like when we installed the first Glacier Scroll in low temp? ... No, I don't see any similarities!
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14-07-2008, 09:45 PM #3
Re: Consider this...
“One man's "magic" is another man's engineering".
Paul
"KEEP IT COOL"
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14-07-2008, 10:05 PM #4
Re: Consider this...
Originally Posted by GXMPLX
Think that one over...If all else fails, ask for help.
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14-07-2008, 10:13 PM #5
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14-07-2008, 11:06 PM #6
Re: Consider this...
Originally Posted by superswill
An owner does not have to know how a refrigeration system works, right. It does or it doesn't. All he notices are the temperatures are proper and it's costing me an arm and a leg to operate.
On the other hand, a refrigeration engineer should understand what causes the system to use energy the way it does to maintain the temperature.
It's not the actual act, it's the perception.
Back to the digital watch... If everyone suddenly recognizes the usefulness of a watch to tell time, it doesn't matter how it works, as long as it does work. By accepting the value of the watch the issue of being bad is removed.If all else fails, ask for help.
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15-07-2008, 12:21 AM #7
Re: Consider this...
Has everybody been on the slingjuice tonight?....lol
This is good...
Magic works without expanations if you explain it then it doesn't work!IF AT FIRST YOU DON`T SUCCEED.
DESTROY ALL EVIDENCE THAT YOU TRIED!
and go get a cuppa
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15-07-2008, 02:03 AM #8
Re: Consider this...
Originally Posted by chillin out
Nope...just offering some food for thought. The more you think, the more you learn....If all else fails, ask for help.
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15-07-2008, 02:16 AM #9
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15-07-2008, 03:39 AM #10
Re: Consider this...
This is almost too easy.
Originally Posted by GXMPLX
Look, what I'm trying to get with this discussion is that the operation of refrigeration systems has principles. These are the basics. The more we understand them the easier our job becomes. It's not magic, it's just the basic principles we are working with.
Take energy conservation for example. Someone might talk about using high efficiency motors. Does that make the system more efficient? Some, but very small benefits are the result.
Some talk about high efficiency compressors, while leaving the discharge pressure high. Will changing the old compressor for one that is more efficient save energy? Yes, but again very small.
VFD's don't save energy. The use of them when properly applied to the fan, pump, or compressor saves energy.
The main issue is not with the components, it is how the components are used and how they interact in a dynamic situation.
Have a conversation with someone who says the discharge pressure cannot go below a certain value, say 150 psig (10.3 bar gauge) on an ammonia system. Anything you suggest as to the reasons why you can go below this pressure and you might hear; that's bad, it will hurt the system or it will not work!
You're getting too tangled up in the philosophy aspect to see the answers.
superswill offered a good comment: “One man's "magic" is another man's engineering".
It's not magic, it's applied engineering... And in most cases, the engineering is fairly simple.If all else fails, ask for help.
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15-07-2008, 05:12 AM #11
Re: Consider this...
Just creamed the butterfly!
Yea sure! Like it was me who tried to explain a poor guy what a watch was in the middle ages!
If it’s magic...
Then why can’t it be everlasting
Like the sun that always shines
Like the poets in this rhyme
Like the galaxies in time…
Maybe, but this time I must agree with chillin_out, someone had too much slingjuice!
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15-07-2008, 01:10 PM #12
Re: Consider this...
Iceman, I think I see where you are coming from and agree, most engineers know why it works but not how it works. Understand how and any issues with why become alot easier to deal with.
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15-07-2008, 03:16 PM #13
Re: Consider this...
Originally Posted by GXMPLX
Originally Posted by GXMPLX
From what I have seen we (the industry) have trouble getting the system to run past the warranty expiration.
One old gentleman offered a saying that might be relevant here; With all thy getting, get understanding.If all else fails, ask for help.
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15-07-2008, 03:24 PM #14
Re: Consider this...
Originally Posted by coolments
Another old saying that is applicable to this situation could be: You can't see the forest for the trees.
The need to be able to separate "small details" from "bigger details" is very important. Otherwise, people have to resort to turning knobs and turning adjusting stems and adding refrigerant.
Things work for a reason...If all else fails, ask for help.
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15-07-2008, 03:26 PM #15
Re: Consider this...
Regarding to energy conservation.
Energy savings in refrigeration is different compare to other industries. In many industries energy saved only by improving efficiency of energy using components. For example, air supply fan. Install VFD and save energy reducing the speed of this fan.
In industrial refrigeration one component of the plant influences on power use of other component. Major energy savings can be achieved though balancing of this components to keep total power use at minimum level.
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15-07-2008, 08:00 PM #16
Re: Consider this...
the point i was trying to make was just because we know why something works do we now how it works?!! many a customer knows why they server rooms needs to kept cold but they dont know how its kept cold,not understanding and not knowing are two different things
i know why i will catch a cold working in winter outside in a pair of shorts but does that make me a doctor?!
"I’ve got a pen in my pocket does that make me a writer
Standing on the mountain doesn’t make me no higher
Putting on gloves don’t make you a fighter
And all the study in the world
Doesn’t make it science"
Paul weller what a class few lines and so true
i can pressure test am i commissioning engineer?Last edited by superswill; 15-07-2008 at 08:09 PM.
Paul
"KEEP IT COOL"
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15-07-2008, 10:12 PM #17
Re: Consider this...
The problem i have with your discussion is that in the case of what we call a technition is the training that many get is insufficient for the (how it works)because the major emphases is on the (why it works) I have always maintained that the first 5 years in this business is really just the beginning. If you really want to get to the (how) of it you need to get the technition trainind in the engineering phase of this business where they get a through understanding of Thermodynamics such as a B.S. degree or equivilent. The need for constant education in an essential requirement. If not a B.S. degree then how about a "certification certificate" of the chapters 9,10,11,in "Principles of Refrigeration" by Dossat. These chapters should be so well understood that every technition should be able to discuss the concepts on the equivilent basis with a refrigeration engineer. Actually the book should be read and understood a minimum of 10 times from cover to cover. Look, here's my philosophy: you go around only once in this life so wht not be all you can be with your abilities.i
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15-07-2008, 10:27 PM #18
Re: Consider this...
Granted, it can be difficult to make the connections between how it works and why it works. Personally I think it is important to use every source of information you can find. The Internet makes this a whole lot easier.
Manufacturers of components (solenoid valves, etc.) all have various sources of literature on their components and equipment. All someone has to do is avail themselves to these sources of information, ask a few questions, and soon you might have a Eureka moment where the light bulb goes off with more understanding.If all else fails, ask for help.
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15-07-2008, 11:03 PM #19
Re: Consider this...
I must say that from the discussions I have witnessed on this and other forums that this is a tremendous source of intelligent information. Is this a typical source you were referring to.
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16-07-2008, 12:01 AM #20
Re: Consider this...
Hi Iceman
I tend to agree with you. Some technicians don't understand how components in a system should work and for that matter how the entire system should work. They might have a fair idea.
Until you fully understand how everything works and what it is there for how can you fix it properly.
We have had technicians who have done repeated fixes. When asked if they knew how this component worked or what it was for they could not tell me.
As you said we work with basic principles and it isn't rocket science and it's not magic.
Superswill is right to some customers it is magic but to a good technician it's just engineering.
Paul
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16-07-2008, 12:57 AM #21
Re: Consider this...
No idea!
I trash them immediately and replace them with a more efficient new one!
My main problem is the ones that don’t!
No matter how difficult this is the engineer’s DUTY… or else …
Sources of information agreed but experiment if you don’t have them!
Sometimes breaking it is the only way to learn!
The problem I see is that sometimes they don’t know enough physics to be able to understand how it works! ... it can be learned but... sometimes it is not worth it!
Have you ever tried to understand how your DVD player works? But I'm sure you know the basic stuff to keep it working!
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16-07-2008, 03:12 AM #22
Re: Consider this...
Originally Posted by PaulZ
If you want to see something really wild that will leave you scratching your head, it's when the system has had so many parts changed it actually starts to work differently, but in line with how the person think it should work.If all else fails, ask for help.
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16-07-2008, 03:18 AM #23
Re: Consider this...
Originally Posted by GXMPLX
I've worked on some systems that were designed by engineers and it was not a pleasant experience. When you are faced with this situation you need to know what to do and why.If all else fails, ask for help.
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16-07-2008, 05:02 AM #24
Re: Consider this...
Well no they don’t! They only have a manual that tells them to do certain tests and if the test fails replace one piece and try again.
That’s exactly what this people are used to do but they don’t even have the manual!
They use a method old as mankind: “Trial and error” it’s stupid, slow, costs money, not efficient but works! If it didn’t these people would have lost their jobs long time ago!
And you should be glad they do this because you can make quite a difference! When I have to solve the mess somebody else did, I don’t talk bad of the last guy that was there, he is kind enough to live clues on where the problem is not, and I simply solve the problem and charge more! It’s a win win situation!
This is a No-No! Never judge a design unless you know first exactly what are the design objectives! Should it be to discourage the next guy that cames to fix it, they succeeded in their design!
If your boss comes and tells you he wants a line of x units at y cost with z failure rate, and you know in order to do that you can’t install filter dryers, suction accumulators or whatever, the only way you will succeed is comply with objectives. (Perhaps you and I would quit the job because we are willing to lose sometimes or want to be proud of work that lasts!).
If customers are willing to pay for it and you reach your objectives and the product sells like bread then the design won, even if you have to throw it away after the first use!
I know it will be hard for you (us) to take this, but if you want to survive deal with it!
That’s the spirit! … and [CENSORED]
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16-07-2008, 05:26 AM #25
Re: Consider this...
Most Design Engineers uses the latest design trend (that also makes the system complex) without taking a deep understanding of the end user operation and maintenance capability.
I have seen a lot of very old refrigeration system that are still in operation being run by not so "educated" guys.
The most common attribute is it's simplicity that makes it easy to operate and maintain.
So, as a Design Engineer, the other important question (after all the technical aspects) is who will operate and maintain. We need to value Simplicity in the Design aspect not for savings purposes but also for easy operation and maintenance.
Just few day ago, have read (From TomPeters.com) this one:
09 July 2008
Keep it simple! (Damn it!) No matter how
"sophisticated" the product. If you can't explain it in a
phrase, a page, or to your 14-year-old ... you haven't
got it right yet.
--Tom Peters
winfred
Pls. Remember K.I.S.S.
Keep It Simple, . . . . . .
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16-07-2008, 06:38 AM #26
Re: Consider this...
Originally Posted by GXMPLX
When I try to do something, I try to do the right thing (not for myself, but for the owner who sometimes does not know what the right thing is). I want him/her to call me back for the next job.
Cheap or expensive anyone can do!
*********************************
The hard part is to get it right for a reasonable sum and do what winfred says.... Keep it simple! (damn it!)
If the system is too damn complicated for the people to work on or maintain, that is exactly what will not happen (it won't work or get serviced).
PS: winfred... I like Tom Peters. He has some really good books and ideas!If all else fails, ask for help.
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16-07-2008, 08:32 PM #27
Re: Consider this...
Most of them are simple if you have the information.
Big brand names tend to keep it so that their folks do the job.
I just had a Deja Vu, isn't this like a repetitive subject?
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16-07-2008, 08:53 PM #28
Re: Consider this...
Originally Posted by GXMPLX
As energy costs continue to increase we cannot continue to do things the same as our mentors used 50 years ago (when energy was cheap). And, when the system designs are performed, will we insist on simplicity, or, will the designs be based on 1950's solutions?Last edited by US Iceman; 16-07-2008 at 08:54 PM. Reason: corrections
If all else fails, ask for help.