Ship with no rudder

[monkeydoug]

So another AC firm goes under and starts up the next day with a slightly different name and hey presto no debts! Fridgetech.com is now Fridgetech UK, if they owe you any money good luck. And how can they can keep their Daikin D1 and Mitsubishi accredited dealer status on the website ?

[Toosh]

So another AC firm goes under and starts up the next day with a slightly different name and hey presto no debts! Fridgetech.com is now Fridgetech UK, if they owe you any money good luck. And how can they can keep their Daikin D1 and Mitsubishi accredited dealer status on the website ?

Hi Monkey, I cant wait to read the comments about this one

Norm

[eggs]

I expect around at least 50% of those one man bands out there 'lovin it' will be running for the cover of a big company in the next 2 years if this recession bites as hard as I expect it to...

Richard

If it's true Richards estimation was 12 months out.......It is a one man band isn't (wasn't) it???
Does Monkydoug = Slingblade

Eggs

[US Iceman]

I hope someone is not trying to stir something up. It gets ugly every time this occurs.

[Peter_1]

When was this post of Richard posted?
Strange things happening.

[Brian_UK]

When was this post of Richard posted?
Strange things happening.

July 2005 and yes.

[chillin out]

Does Monkydoug = Slingblade

I doubt it. If Slingblade wanted to say something he would just say it instead of hiding behind a pseudo name.

Chillin

[r.bartlett]

If it's true Richards estimation was 12 months out.......It is a one man band isn't (wasn't) it???
Does Monkydoug = Slingblade

Eggs

This has been brought to my attention and as my name has been associated with it I will clarify some of the details.

If it's true

It is true Fridgetech.Com Ltd went into voluntary liquidation. FridgetechUK Ltd is the new operating name.My knowledge of the details is sketchy as I only found out this was going to happen when I bumped into Marc on a site and we had a brief chat. (Only the second time I had spoken to him since I'd left)

My association with Fridgetech.Com Ltd ended in August 2007 when I resigned as a Director. I rejoined my old company which I had started back in 1987.
ambientcontrol dot co dot uk

Richards estimation was 12 months out

Indeed it may have been 12 months or a day depending upon how you look at it. I have long been forecasting a big recession when all around were telling me the sun shines forever in Browns miracle economy.However a few reps would more than agree we've been in recession far longer than the stats say.

It is a one man band isn't (wasn't) it???

It was a OMB when Marc started it and it was like that for many years. However at it's height it had in excess of 2m turnover with 6 install teams flat out.

Does Monkydoug = Slingblade

No, MD is an ex employee who left about 18 months to 2 years ago.

Cheers

Richard

[al]

Richard

Welcome back, could you be tempted to rejoin with us?

Al

[Daddy Cool]

I think it's good to have anyone return who has knowledge of the industry and experience to offer, regardless of the reasons for their absence. it's tough times out there for everyone, so good luck to Marc, and i hope no-one has suffered personally/financially.

[frank]

Hi Richard......

Nice to see you posting again.

[Andy]

Richard

welcome back. I do mean what I say.

Kind Regards Andy

[Peter_1]

Same for me Richard, I hope it doesn't stay with only this thread.

[monkeydoug]

No I am not slingblade.

This wasn't the response I was expecting, but I have to say quite an interesting one anyway. Hi Richard, I hope you and yours are well.

I'm a little dissappointed that the point I raised about the manufacturer's approved installer status hasn't invoked a single comment, do they mean nothing except for the ability to offer 5 year parts warranty to clients, and therefore the chance to secure 5 years worth of servicing / maintenance contracts. The only advantage they offer then is purely for individual benefit and doesn't really mean anything to suppliers or competitors.
But, if a supplier has a bad debt with a company should they not have their status revoked?

[Gary]

But, if a supplier has a bad debt with a company should they not have their status revoked?

That's between the supplier and the company. Presumably, each will do what is in their best interests, with no third party interference needed or wanted.

[monkeydoug]

with no third party interference needed or wanted.

As a member of both Daikin and Mitsubishi's approved installer schemes I don't consider myself a third party, I think I am entitled to an opinion on the schemes. I have to send my engineers on the manufacturer training courses in order to maintain the approved installer status, and I cover their wages for the days they attend, all in the belief that this gives me an edge over the competition. In todays "tough" times, anything that gives me an edge over the competition is worth exploiting don't you think?

[Gary]

You may in fact have a legitimate complaint, which you should take up with the manufacturers in question.

[monkeydoug]

The ball is already rolling, thanks for the reply. How are Daikin doing in Florida, do you know Dave Lucas?

[Gary]

I don't know much about Daikin here. Up until retirement (last year) I was working supermarket refrigeration.

[slingblade]

LOL. no monkeydoug is not slingblade, i can confirm this. i only came online tonight to berate the racist brazilians, italians and spaniards after the the historic lewis hamilton victory on sunday and their subsequent uproar about the cheating toyota team. which is unfounded and untrue, also not dissimilar to the germans who swore blind micheal schumacher did not dileberatley ram damon hill off the road in 1993. i digress, i should have started another thread, but this caught my eye. if the fridgetech company has gone under then it is a sign of the times, i would not wish that on anyone (one exception) as most of us who post on here have a mortgage and possibly children to feed. however starting up the week after under a slightly different name needs to be adressed by the government. i feel the dodging of debt by changing company names and directors is as bad as rape or murder. i will point out also i have no idea of the circumstances and comment only on what i have read here.

R bartlett- if that is you then i hope you are well and life is treating you well.

[slingblade]

I doubt it. If Slingblade wanted to say something he would just say it instead of hiding behind a pseudo name.

Chillin

Correct, thank you.

[multisync]

Originally Posted by chillin out
I doubt it. If Slingblade wanted to say something he would just say it instead of hiding behind a pseudo name.

Chillin

Correct, thank you.

Lets see here, someone who is using a pseudo name is denying that someone who is also using a pseudo name from not using the other pseudo name.
The one who is using a pseudo name but not the other pseudo name is confirming that he wasn't using the other pseudo name whilst thanking him for pointing out the unlikelyhood of him using the other pseudo name..

*Multisync
London
* Pseudo name

[Brian_UK]

Originally Posted by chillin out
I doubt it. If Slingblade wanted to say something he would just say it instead of hiding behind a pseudo name.

Chillin



Lets see here, someone who is using a pseudo name is denying that someone who is also using a pseudo name from not using the other pseudo name.
The one who is using a pseudo name but not the other pseudo name is confirming that he wasn't using the other pseudo name whilst thanking him for pointing out the unlikelyhood of him using the other pseudo name..

*Multisync
London
* Pseudo name

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, sorry dozed off there for a minute

[750 Valve]

I just noticed this and hope that too many people haven't been left in the lurch - subcontrators and employees owed money that is.

As for the company owners/directors - mum said if you can't say something nice about someone don't say anything at all. I will be saying nothing except for karma is a bitch isn't it.

[monkeydoug]

Yes, I do believe what ye sowee, ye reapee..........

Since I left Fridgetech I haven't looked back, but they (MOB) have been bashing me off on the US equivalent of RE.Com, HVAC-Talk, so it really pains me to hear that they aren't doing very well.

Slingblade, you can't go through life just sitting on the fence you know...................

[monkeydoug]

Since I left Fridgetech I haven't looked back, but they (MOB) have been bashing me off on the US equivalent of RE.Com, HVAC-Talk, so it really pains me to hear that they aren't doing very well.

I stand corrected, it appears that the person doing the bashing wasn't MOB.

[Brian_UK]

I stand corrected, it appears that the person doing the bashing wasn't MOB.

That's why you need to be careful when publishing this type of info. Someone, somewhere will bite you in the bum.

[slingblade]

Hi richard, my interweb shows you as being online now, which means you have logged in since yesterday when you were not online. i understand the whole fridgetech marc o'brien thing must have been very embarassing for you but there are a lot of people who value your input as a seasoned engineer on this forum and i hope you post further.

Monkeydoug- i have never before been accused of sitting on the fence on this website.. search my earlier posts for proof.LOL.

[spacemanmark]

Hi Richard

Its a shame that it took a thread like this to bring you back to the forum. Hope your well my friend, I take it you never made it to Australia?

Take care

Mark Woods

[slingblade]

Sorry to bring up the past, but richard has done one along with my best mate it would seem. i can now lay all my annoyance to the dim and distant past, i beg appologies from whoever i may have upset, but it is now over.
thank fcuk for that.

RIP fridgetech.com. wnakers.

Sorry to bring up an old thread but i have only just read all of it.

[al]

You're forgiven and absolved(makes sign of cross), now any chance of the above in english??

al

[DTLarca]

So another AC firm goes under and starts up the next day with a slightly different name and hey presto no debts! Fridgetech.com is now Fridgetech UK, if they owe you any money good luck. And how can they can keep their Daikin D1 and Mitsubishi accredited dealer status on the website ?

It depends on what you mean by debt.

Governments realised a long time ago that there often occur economic events that, by no fault of their own, businessmen suddenly and wholly unexpectedly, cannot pay debts which a few days earlier they fully expected to pay. So they created the limited liability mechanism. The government assures you that provided you do nothing wrong yourself then if a business struggles you are not to worry - they are in it with you for the wealth of the nation. This is how the west got so rich and so very rich that the only reason the east is also somewhat rich is because it has fuel resources made available by means created in the west borne out of a motivation occurring only because of this limited liability mechanism.

After the nasties of the floods 2007 Fridgetech.Com Ltd was completely overhauled over a period of 6 months during the middle period 2008. Work was picking back up beyond its expectations and 8 working days before the financial crash Fridgetech.Com Ltd had sent out 2 new employment contracts to installers it hoped to employ in a hurry. 8 days after those employment contracts went out the financial crash occurred and suddenly all VRV installation projects about to start were either canceled entirely or postponed indefinitely. This is about £600,000.00 worth of installations for which faxed order confirmations had been received and upon which it was decided to send out employment contracts.

The accountant said the company can pull through with some further adjustments.

A liquidating firm were consulted who recommended the company go into administration - having looked at the books they thought it could easily pull through within a few months. It actually turned out that the liquidators were correct - things happened exactly as they predicted meaning had the company gone into administration it would have pulled through and would have been back out within months.

However - I'm a "take no nonsense" person. The financial crash was not my business - it was none of my doing. It might have been Gordon Brown's doing - partially by deregulating the banks or at least removing control of the country's finances from the bank of england. I don't know - I didn't care - since the financial crash occurred through no doing of mine I was not willing to sign any further required sureties. We had had an overdraft facility for years and almost never used it - under other circumstances I would be happy to use it but I was not prepared to use it under the circumstances prevailing October 2008.

My attitude was "Why should I sign personal security for a deeper overdraft when the only thing I can control is the company and not the economy".

Against my brothers wishes I forced everybody to follow me delivering the company, voluntarily, into the hands of the liquidators. My attitude was "There Gordon Brown - you sort this **** out - I'm off to carry on with the other two companies we had running on the side. Those were Powertech and Gastech.

The liquidators asked us if we would want to buy anything from the company in liquidation. We asked "Like what?" and they said "Like all the tools, vans, computers, furniture, customers, contracts - like everything or anything you wanted". They also said that because they can see the books were very likely run without any signs of dodgy doings like jobs for cash and what have you and squandering of income etc it would not be inappropriate for us to also pay a small fee for the company name Fridgetech.

We discussed this with all the staff openly - all transparent - all the staff knew exactly what we were considering.

In the end Powertech paid the liquidators for the name Fridgetech. Paying a fee for the name and all the contracts Powertech was changed to Fridgetech UK. Fridgetech UK then offered all its customers continued warranty coverage of all equipment despite the uncertainties regarding whether the suppliers would still offer the same warranties through Fridgetech UK.

Because I moved very fast on the matter we were able to pay all the staff their full salaries, their full notice pay and their full redundancy packages.

For the last few weeks of the company I brought in all the installers and their assistants and gave them several good days training on service skills. I told them it was to maximise their chances of finding employment elsewhere in these times that seemed possibly to become hard times. I think it was about a weeks worth of training but quite intense lessons including mini-split electronics and subcool and superheat mastery. They all went thereafter to join other companies as service engineers and were very thankful for the training. I am pleased to hear that one of the installation assistants we were putting through college - and on closing the company paid the college the full amount due to see him to the end of the year - now works for the college as their in-house tech.

I am not aware of any subcontractor who was not paid. We did have a problem with a Paul Dougan and his friend who subcontracted to us and almost all of Paul Dougan's customers. We were considering taking Paul Dougan to court. His next employer REFAIR or some such contacted me a few months ago and told me he wants to also take Paul Dougan to court. I told him I would gladly give testament against Paul Dougan. Paul Dougan was a Daikin sales rep who we employed - a very big mistake - I spent almost all of 2008 fixing his project problems when I was hoping to be rebuilding the company after the issues of 2007. I still hope to face him in court - I hope someone shows him this message and maybe we will meet in court one day. I have told the liquidators that if they were to chase Paul Dougan for any lost revenues through the courts they must call me because I am so very very willing to give testament.

All the suppliers, within days, had reestablished accounts with us. And Fridgetech UK was paying the few small debts left unpaid by Fridgetech.Com despite everyone (liquidators and suppliers themselves) telling us that we do not need to worry - that all gets sorted by insurance companies they say - nope, we used profits from Fridgetech UK Ltd to pay those debts anyway.

One supplier had supplied us with a few units with a factory defect - identical problem across the units - but they denied there was a problem - this caused us a little misery and expense and so we did not bother try squaring any debts with that supplier and I couldn't give a damn about them going into the future.

Before 2008 the company was run by no one with any business savvy - only good sales persons and good engineers. Now it is run by a good sales person and a good engineer each who despite all the lessons learned still do not consider themselves business men - just professionals who will forever be riding a boat with all engines on full throttle giving good horsepower but no rudder.

Who needs a rudder when you have so much enthusiasm

Business is a gamble and always will be a gamble - if it wasn't then we wouldn't need the limited liability mechanism.

I provide training and consultancy services on the side as a sole trader - not under the limited liability mechanism - but this is because I see zero risk in my system design services or the levels of my knowledge and abilities to impart with it and all cash is paid in advance.

As for D1 status. Well, the company is installing on average 2 VRV system's a month. Very little is bought from Daikin but despite this the company does qualify for D1 status. I never understood the benefits though - I can only remember attending a few days training now and then which makes for a reasonably pleasant laid back day off with a little technical banter.

Fridgetech UK is already owed over £100,000.00 by customers that have gone bust on it. One housing developer who opens a new company each time they develop a new house has in the past few months closed 3 of those companies each owing Fridgetech UK £3000,00 + £4500,00 + £6000,00 but these are the times we live in and so far, despite this, Fridgetech UK is solid and moving more and more also into the chiller market.

Now, if only I could find a few good subcontracting chilled water pipe fitters and, Christ, why is there such a shortage of VRV installing subcontractors??!!

[monkey spanners]

Monkeydoug....Paul Dougan, Paul Dougan....Monkeydoug, (rubs chin), says "I wonder...."

[DTLarca]

It was a OMB when Marc started it and it was like that for many years. However at it's height it had in excess of 2m turnover with 6 install teams flat out.

A one man band for many years?

Gosh, I can't remember now.

For the first year the company name was registered but I was mostly making money building websites doing a little subcontracting here and there including a bit for Ambient Control. The first year's turnover was a mere £73,000.00

The turnover doubled every year thereafter till the slump with the cold weather and floods of 2007. 2008 started slow but toward the end we were expecting to turn over in excess of 1 million in the last quarter when bang - the balloon burst. We had invested £36,000.00 in one lump into marketing mid 2008 just after I had restructured the company and had finished properly training everyone into their new roles. This was one of the reasons for paying the liquidators for the Fridgetech name and address and phone numbers etc because the return on that investment was expected only mid 2009 but has really only been realised lately with me having to commission 5 VRV sites these next 2 weeks. Another change in my life - I am reading all the Daikin and Mitsi VRV manuals for a change - this VRV stuff is actually quite interesting. It's the electronics I want to really get into now.

We are doing our best preparations and training organisation to hold the company at a 3 mil turnover with much fewer but bigger projects. It would be nice to get to the stage of just three 1 mil projects a year. But probably an unattainable ideal only useful as a concept worth dreaming about or at least aiming for.

We never did anything to develop the service department - it was always just chugging along quietly in the background acting as assistance to the installation department - especially with LG warranties.

The service department was always subsidised by the installation department and still is but I am looking to change that in the new year. I am putting the service engineers and Subbie's through a pretty extensive training schedule leaning especially toward chillers to the point they can now fully design their own chilled water systems if they had the desire but this approach is picking up good work - when your service engineer rocks up at a problem chiller site for the first time and is able to outshine any of the consultants who have already visited site to discuss quotes - you must be doing something right. I have already won a few chiller replacement jobs in London that under normal circumstances would have been highly unlikely including, according to the one customer, from a company you (Richard) worked for immediately before joining Fridgetech.Com. Anyway from these the profits get counted as service department earnings meaning the department is now already paying its own way for the first time ever and I have only been back 6 weeks

[DTLarca]

Monkeydoug....Paul Dougan, Paul Dougan....Monkeydoug, (rubs chin), says "I wonder...."

Looking at the Avatar you could be right - I can only wish

[DTLarca]

Yes, I do believe what ye sowee, ye reapee..........

Since I left Fridgetech I haven't looked back, but they (MOB) have been bashing me off on the US equivalent of RE.Com, HVAC-Talk, so it really pains me to hear that they aren't doing very well.

Slingblade, you can't go through life just sitting on the fence you know...................

Lol, I should have read the whole thread before replying.

Paul Dougan - is that you? I want our company database back!! I want my life from 2008 back trying to fix your sites!!

I want our customers back!!

What's the idea - leave us with a multitude of sites incomplete and unpaid for and so impossible to complete especially without any money in the job to complete so that we look bad to those customers so that you can take them from us?

I told Sean you could not have planned such an enormous f*uck up and still convince the customers it had nothing to do with you despite you being the sales and projects manager - Sean was right - you took the customers despite me even having to take one to court. I did get a judgment against them but the damage you left behind was of an unimaginable scale. You were too smart to be that incompetent - you are just a deviant!

Anyway - if your last employer does get any money back from you via the courts perhaps there'll be no scraps for me to take

Lol, I hope this is Paul Dougan and not some other guy nice guy we employed.

[DTLarca]

Since I left Fridgetech I haven't looked back.

That's because you have no conscience.

I imagine since leaving Airef (is that your last employer?) you haven't looked back either. Has he filed anything with the courts against you yet?

I'm going to phone him tomorrow and ask him how far he got with his desire to file a claim against you. I think he said you had also taken his customer database?

After you left you deleted all copies of your contracts and agreements with our customers drawn up by you. You also deleted all your email conversations with them. Apparently you did the same with Airef?

We lost an enormous amount of money and time because customers left right and center were demanding this and that from us - stuff we do not ordinarily agree to and in the end with some of them we just told them to keep their money - we simply could not find the time to deal with all the nonsense - if only we had copies of the contracts and the emails!!

but they (MOB) have been bashing me off on the US equivalent of RE.Com, HVAC-Talk, so it really pains me to hear that they aren't doing very well.

I probably did - The months in working days I lost trying to sort out all the **** you left behind - Christ it was about 12 days on one legal issue alone including the the two aborted and the one successful court day against Veridium, preparing and filing and replying to counterclaims and so on - Veridium who you apparently also used to connive £40,000.00 or so out of Airef. Thankfully Veridium went bust in the end - you and them made for a great pair of fraudsters.

I hope we get to discuss all this in court one day. I hope I get lot's of opportunity to discuss it with all the supplier reps I come across.

[Brian_UK]

OK guys, whoa there.

Marc, thanks for your open statement about what happened. I've been there myself in a different branch of the trade some years back and it's never an easy or happy time.

As regards who'se done what, to whom and with what I would hope that all of you who are or may be involved in this issue will respect the forum and not get into a deep slanging match.

Thanks Brian

[DTLarca]

OK guys, whoa there.

Marc, thanks for your open statement about what happened. I've been there myself in a different branch of the trade some years back and it's never an easy or happy time.

As regards who'se done what, to whom and with what I would hope that all of you who are or may be involved in this issue will respect the forum and not get into a deep slanging match.

Thanks Brian

No worries.

A little carnage never hurt anyone

[eggs]

Evening all.

First off, please let me apologise to both Richard and Marc. I have perhaps in the past made a few unwarranted comments.

Secondly, thanks Marc for your open and honest post.

Thirdly, to the mods. Perhaps you could make this a sticky in the Legal, Business and Marketing forum (if Marc does not object).........to show how quickly and easily it can all go so, so wrong.

I have recently taken a massive hit from ROK, fortunately i will see it through. Although on more than one occasion I have thought "Fuc* it, let the government and insurance companies pick up the tab".

Eggs

[mad fridgie]

And they call this "the season of good will to all men!"

[DTLarca]

And they call this "the season of good will to all men!"

Good will to all men all of the time would be even better - I never understood why only some of the time

Good will and good faith should be something we do - not wish.

[DTLarca]

Evening all.

First off, please let me apologise to both Richard and Marc. I have perhaps in the past made a few unwarranted comments.

Secondly, thanks Marc for your open and honest post.

Thirdly, to the mods. Perhaps you could make this a sticky in the Legal, Business and Marketing forum (if Marc does not object).........to show how quickly and easily it can all go so, so wrong.

I have recently taken a massive hit from ROK, fortunately i will see it through. Although on more than one occasion I have thought "Fuc* it, let the government and insurance companies pick up the tab".

Eggs

Sounds good to me, Eggs

[mad fridgie]

Limited liability, what was your limit.
Was it proportinal to your companies turnover, if not then it is fair that your suppliers are entitled to ask for a personal guarantee. Business is a gamble, you should be responsible for a good proportion of the risk, if you are going to benefit from the reward.
This is not a dig at you, but at the system where it is way to easy to say you are limited, hock up heaps of bill, then fold. I see it as a house of cards.
I have recently folded one of my companies (all have been paid) due to property developers,.
I had a contractual/legal requirement to warrant equipment i had supplied and installed, but not been paid for. Unfortunate for those who had purchased the property.
I do remember doing a large job with a very large deposit, The client made me give a personal guarantee (home as security)that the money deposit money was to be spent on the project. This ensured we were cash positive and that all suppliers were paid.
I think we should be promoting more transparent money streams.
In NZ a company has been set up where the purchaser deposits the money (ensureing the contractor gets paid) but the money is only released when the client recieves his goods and services. It has a cost, but does give security for both parties (a bit like paypal)

[mad fridgie]

Good will to all me all of the time would be even better - I never understood why only some of the time

Good will and good faith should be something we do - not wish.

Agree, but then we live in the real world!
I tend to see the good in all, and in business i do not mind being screwed, but i am so sick of being fcuked as well, GOD i am turning into a "grumpy old *******"

[DTLarca]

Limited liability, what was your limit.

There is no limit provided all is done in good faith.

You can supply me, who currently turns over less than £3 mil with £100 mil worth of VRV or Chiller equipment with 100% interest free credit and so long as I can show my debt to you cannot be paid through no fault of my own - e.g. I did not take payment to me for installing the kit and buy my mom a house - or sell it to someone I knew could very likely have problems paying for it - then I just volunteer the company into liquidation or you force it into liquidation at further cost to you.

Also - if you have received a county court claim in debt for an outstanding bill from one supplier then you are technically insolvent. If you make any further purchases on credit from any other supplier after receiving that claim in debt you will be forced by the courts to pay for all subsequent credit given your company if your company were finally unable to make good those payments itself.

Last year a close friend of my brother's who operated a shop fitting company took all his staff out for a 6K Christmas dinner owing us 5K for many months. January he could not pay salaries. February we filed a claim in debt. March or so the government got involved - turned out he was buying houses for his family on income from supplying equipment he never intended to pay the supplier for. He is expected to do time.

We now have learned that when in doubt get the directors to sign surety personally. I do not even think to deliver a water chiller unless I have a directors signature on a section I have added to our quotes which explains that the director is signing personal surety.

And nothing is turned on until at least 80% of the total project value is properly paid for. Lessons learned make life so much easier.

[750 Valve]

Oh no it can't be..... the oracle has returned!

**bows**

For the life of me I cannot find a copy of the video you once sent me, I needed a good laugh recently and thought of it. You wouldn't still have it would you Marc?

[desA]

A happy fridgie family, it seems...

Ok, to the important part : "Who cut the cheese?"

[DTLarca]

Oh no it can't be..... the oracle has returned!

**bows**

For the life of me I cannot find a copy of the video you once sent me, I needed a good laugh recently and thought of it. You wouldn't still have it would you Marc?

Oracle?

Video?

I recall posting links to a few videos but which they were I don't remember.

[750 Valve]

Oh come on yes you do, you made it especially for me, it even starred your big ugly mug.

What a shame its gone forever, it went a long way to show what a really genuine, caring guy you are. Oh well, maybe you will have to post a bit more around here and show us all that famous Marc O'Brien "how to win friends and influence people" personality you have..... or maybe webram can make all the previous posts under your previous username visible to all again - that's be worth a few laughs.