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Thread: Carters Widget Revealed!
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22-08-2011, 08:58 PM #101
Re: Carters Widget Revealed!
It is unlikely to be a venturi (as you know it) I have left this part open to what it actually is, Basically it is a Thermal Vapour Compresssor (TVR) or some form Condell effect mover. (these devices use less mass flow for the motive force as the driver).
Your are not really sucking, as this applies a stastic flow, as we know we have flow through the suction.
The first question has to be does it have the potential to work, and how to we prove what the results would be in a perfect world.
Secondly if the question is yes then what piece of equipment is required to achieve the results.
I have formulated my own calculations, and have built a test rigg(s) to test. Thats does not mean my method is correct, nor the parts chosen for the test rigg are even close to what is required.
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22-08-2011, 09:02 PM #102
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22-08-2011, 09:13 PM #103
Re: Carters Widget Revealed!
Morning MF
does it make a difference with suction flow, where the flash gas ends up ?
(Suction line or direct into compressor)If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !
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22-08-2011, 10:13 PM #104
Re: Carters Widget Revealed!
CCF23082011_00000.jpg
A very basic drawing of the widget configuration
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22-08-2011, 10:31 PM #105
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22-08-2011, 10:39 PM #106
Re: Carters Widget Revealed!
MF
I think you have with your drawing & the posts (unless I am missing something)
Your controlling condensor pressure
Your removing flash gas, improving mass to txv, improving evap efficiency
Your increasing suction pressure
Overall refrigeration efficiency has to go up ??? Surely
Now I can see it - I can not see any pitfalls (anyone agree ????)
R's chillermanIf the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !
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22-08-2011, 10:57 PM #107
Re: Carters Widget Revealed!
It is some what more complicated in the theory, how ever I do not want show how may calculations have been achieved. I do not need some to check that i can add my apples calculation, when in fact what i should calculatting is bananas, in other words my method of determining efficiency/performance may well be flawed, and I do not want to influence, others thought patterns on what the result maybe.
The practical objective is to reduce the compressor displacment, increase COP.
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22-08-2011, 11:02 PM #108
Re: Carters Widget Revealed!
The pic is just a snapshot in time at a steady condition!
Practically and what is required to prove performance is a the system moving to reach a steady state.
The compressor inlet pressure will only increase when the process is underway, so to start with it will run similar to a normal system, as we start to recompressor, the compressor mass flow will increase, which inturn makes more flash gas in the vessel, which gives greater levels of recompression and so on until equalbrium is reached.
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22-08-2011, 11:06 PM #109
Re: Carters Widget Revealed!
If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !
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22-08-2011, 11:12 PM #110
Re: Carters Widget Revealed!
ok am no genius am just a fix it tech perhaps you need to look at yr problem from different angle instead of fitting it to existing system as a drop in part to inrease efficency design a whole system around yr widget and then when you have it working 100percent go back and adjust yr design for drop in fitting basically taking an idea and making it better is that to easy ? or do i need a good kick and to shut up ? lol
just hit me looks a little like an nrc enviro pack design low pressure reciever that was higer than case tev so gravity fed valveLast edited by simon@parker; 22-08-2011 at 11:17 PM.
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22-08-2011, 11:15 PM #111
Re: Carters Widget Revealed!
The drawing show the liquid/vapor seperation in the vessel.
100% in liquid (35C sat)
Reduce pressure (0C sat)
Liquid leaving 69% (0Csat)
Vapour leaving 31% (0C sat)
This would remain a constant as long as the incoming liquid remained constant.
How ever the actual total mass flow SHOULD increase over time (as the process fires up).
PS figures care of old faithful Coolpack!
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22-08-2011, 11:16 PM #112
Re: Carters Widget Revealed!
Last edited by chillerman2006; 22-08-2011 at 11:48 PM. Reason: too short/sharp - sorry bud
If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !
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22-08-2011, 11:26 PM #113
Re: Carters Widget Revealed!
Certainly no good kick required, it is opinion that we are after, right or wrong does not matter, I would hope that most on here are not here to belittle those who are making an effort. and what you are saying does make sense.
The fact is that you would need to design or redesign the system when fitting the widget, more to do with how the TEV is sized and how the evap coil is confirgured (but that well down the path of proving it works or not)
I do not want to be BS artist, so we have to compare the performance of a system with a widget and without.
The problem is i can not get it working, with any form of repeatability (sometimes very good, sometimes very very bad)
And i am unable (due to lack of funds) to find the right information to solve the issue.
cheers for your input
Mad
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22-08-2011, 11:26 PM #114
Re: Carters Widget Revealed!
G,day C.M. Have not been on long this morning, (as you already know), so i'm catching up on reading. Got the telescope out to see if Mike "Canada" is there ready to put a sock in my mouth again. Check top of page 2 ..Mike.
To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty.
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22-08-2011, 11:27 PM #115
Re: Carters Widget Revealed!
but the rigs he has are conventional systems ? with widget added ? am talking about complet system design to give him flow required at optimum velocitys from my limited perspective if the condensor is over sized slightly with a flow regulator after it and the reciever is used as a surge vessel to back liquid up instead of a conventional reciever which flow passes through liquid will be constant vapour will be constant condenser will act as a semi reciever the rest is standard ish
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22-08-2011, 11:27 PM #116
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22-08-2011, 11:35 PM #117
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22-08-2011, 11:40 PM #118
Re: Carters Widget Revealed!
Long story short!
First rigg, just modified an existing rigg nothing to special, to see if there was potential, had possible results.
(also some flawed testing) because part of the design is to consider what happens if there is a failure with the widget (cause and effect)
Built purpose rigg, with 100% isolation and by-pass of each and every component. So it can be run as 100% conventional or 100% with widget and all steps im-between
can control load (flow and temp), pressure, Superheat, sub cooling, and condensing flow rates.
Basically we are measuring for results cooling capacity, power draw and heat rejected, whilst measuring the parts of the refrigeration system to ensure that we keep with component specifications.
The TVR could be wrong (venturi type device) more than one size and the wrong type, the vessel could be wrong, asumed peak performance may be wrong.
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22-08-2011, 11:43 PM #119
Re: Carters Widget Revealed!
If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !
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22-08-2011, 11:44 PM #120
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22-08-2011, 11:48 PM #121
Re: Carters Widget Revealed!
Mad, so using your control rig, if it is only a scale model of the real working size, and identical rig with device in place, would there not be changes such as weight of refrigerant and volume of flow that has to be taken into account? Maybe gravity and ambients have effects. ( Assuming these are scale models as i can't see you moving coldrooms to UK on Air N.Z.)
To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty.
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22-08-2011, 11:51 PM #122
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22-08-2011, 11:55 PM #123
Re: Carters Widget Revealed!
theres no banter in the uk its the northerners and the rest! haha
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22-08-2011, 11:55 PM #124
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23-08-2011, 12:00 AM #125
Re: Carters Widget Revealed!
Mike,
The unit is a full size model, could be made bigger, could be made smaller, i would expect the complete widget to be the size of an accumulator (the size that would suit a certain size plant)
The test rigg is basically a water cooled, water chiller. (it is some what easier to control and monitor water on both sides) the actual application is not important, it is only a refrigeration circuit.
Copeland ZB 45 on R134a "Brand new"
The bigger the compression ratio, then it would seem the bigger the increase in performance.
for example (using my clacs which could be completely wrong!!) an Ac improvement would only 7-9% increase max net cooling, verses a LT system upto 55% increase in net cooling. (personally I was looking at it for hot water heat pumps)
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23-08-2011, 12:03 AM #126
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23-08-2011, 12:07 AM #127
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23-08-2011, 12:07 AM #128
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23-08-2011, 12:11 AM #129
Re: Carters Widget Revealed!
Last edited by chillerman2006; 23-08-2011 at 12:13 AM.
If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !
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23-08-2011, 12:15 AM #130
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23-08-2011, 12:20 AM #131
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23-08-2011, 12:21 AM #132
Re: Carters Widget Revealed!
Hey, what about us Canuks where the suns still shining. Oh well, maybe i'll put a steak on the BBQ and have a beer if you are all going.
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23-08-2011, 12:25 AM #133
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23-08-2011, 12:29 AM #134
Re: Carters Widget Revealed!
CCF23082011_00000 (2).jpg
A scabby drawing of possible types of widget parts
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23-08-2011, 12:33 AM #135
Re: Carters Widget Revealed!
After my lovely dinner (without the sword play) I'll be back an ponder the widget some more. Cheers, CM
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23-08-2011, 01:16 AM #136
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23-08-2011, 01:30 AM #137
Re: Carters Widget Revealed!
We have proven that the flash gas (just after TEV) in a normal system has little benefit to the net cooling effect.
By having an indermidiate pressure, we retain the mass of liquid required to meet the refrigeration load, plus we have vapour at pressure higher than the suction, this vapour has the potential to do some work (chosing the words wisely I hope, as not to influence your thought patterns) How would you then determine the work available and how would this be applied, remembering that at the end all streams will pass through the compressor.
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23-08-2011, 02:17 AM #138
Re: Carters Widget Revealed!
Where is the TEV sensing bulb mounted?
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23-08-2011, 02:27 AM #139
Re: Carters Widget Revealed!
Re written Gents banter on here facts only on the other please
If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !
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23-08-2011, 02:31 AM #140
Re: Carters Widget Revealed!
I normally use the term expansion device, just used TEV for short, but if was a TEV, then i would presume at the evap. So your next aargument is that we will have some superheat, therefore the flash gas would indeed slightly increase the net cooling effect.
For simplistic purposes I am just using saturation points (subcooling, superheat will of course effect what happens within the system, as it always does)
On the other hand, if the widget has a whole (this how i invisage it) is mounted next to the evap, then maybe the bulb could be mounted after the widget to ensure a fully wetted coil.
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23-08-2011, 02:52 AM #141
Re: Carters Widget Revealed!
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23-08-2011, 03:07 AM #142
Re: Carters Widget Revealed!
very witty,
Looking forward to that one coming.
If the thing works, and we can prove it, there are plenty of other considerations that to be needed to be accounted for. (many I already know, likely some that i do not) But unless I can get independent proof of concept and some level of possible commercial practiabilty (can be bought, sold and installed for the right price, I believe this side is possible) then other considerations are not worth looking at.
I have spent the last year working on this (not full time) as much for fun as commercial gain. I am presently stumped! hit the wall! in the dark! can not see the wood for trees. Hence bring out into the public eye.
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23-08-2011, 03:19 AM #143
Re: Carters Widget Revealed!
As it happens, I have been studying the very same phenomena... although my widget is very different from your widget.
What I was looking for is the opposing forces that bring stability, the zig that balances the zag, the ying for the yang.
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23-08-2011, 03:25 AM #144
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23-08-2011, 03:29 AM #145
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23-08-2011, 03:47 AM #146
Re: Carters Widget Revealed!
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23-08-2011, 03:52 AM #147
Re: Carters Widget Revealed!
If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !
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23-08-2011, 04:17 AM #148
Re: Carters Widget Revealed!
Well I hope you can use thread to help with your project,
hers some more to help you along the way.
Vortex tube to further sub cool the liquid, and to use of joul thompson to reduce compressor SH, whilst increasing mass flow, of course will need high side intercoler.
a simple turbo charger, would do the trick
You could use a an ejector and go internal sonic an elevate the exit pressure above that of the motive force, recondense and re-introduce into the liquid line.
there are good few other options but just best suited to very stable steady systems.
hope this help for a starter.
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23-08-2011, 04:45 AM #149
Re: Carters Widget Revealed!
Hot and heavy competition seems unlikely. The only person I ever compete with is myself.
My widget is on a back burner. In addition to the material resources involved, real testing requires a level of self-discipline which I decidedly lack... and bringing it to market is even less appealing to me. Brainstorming is the fun part. The rest of it is a nightmare. And I'm retired.
So... back burner it is.Last edited by Gary; 23-08-2011 at 04:47 AM.
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23-08-2011, 04:53 AM #150