Gree 2 pipe systems

[Dixon]

Hi everbody this is my first post so be gentle!!!

I'm trying to get some feedback regarding Gree ac units, I've installed quite a few splits and just put in a 30Kw 2 pipe system running 4 ceiling cassettes which touch wood is doing a good job.

I've done a bit of searching and found a few negative posts on here about Gree so I'm slightly concerned!!! Anybody been using them and if so what do you think?? Also read Haier threads which don't make good reading.

Personally I've not had any problems, I've been on their website and the range looks pretty good with 410a inverters available. Any thoughts anyone or have I just been lucky so far!

Cheers for reading, opinions warmly received!

[grump]

Hi Dixon,Ref Gree,Haier AC units My bet is the people who are complaining about this equipment have not installed it properly ie they don,t use nitrogen when welding,they do not pressure test properly,they do not add refrigerant as specified.they do not commission the job,The electrical wiring is very often substandard,some of them dont know the difference between the high and low side, many have not got a clue with regards to psychometrics,they do not
posses a set of gauges,have no idea what a vacuum is.
Welcome to RE Grump

[paul_h]

The only problem I have with the cheaper units is getting good manuals and spare parts.
If you can get manuals and parts, those cheaper units don't worry me.
My house is full of cheap units that have not broken and worked fine in 44C ambients, more than I can say for all the big brand units I repair.
I've had to fix enough name brand units to know reliabilty isn't determined by price or name these days.
But then again, I installed mine, and who knows how well they installed the name brand units I fix.
Most people want a brand they get support, service, manuals and parts for, that's the most important thing. A lot of people say "made in china etc = bad". But this PC I'm using to post this reply on is all made dirt cheap in china and has run for 3 years
edit: Though I have to admit my cheap units aren't as quiet as any of the big brands. Cheap a/cs will blow cold air, that's all they guarantee though, they don't guarantee to do it quietly or efficiently.

[Dixon]

good to hear your thoughts. Personally I have no problems with Gree, the wall mounts are very reliable, cassettes are very similar to Daikin build wise and as you say grump the problem is more the engineer than the equipment I reckon. I can make an extra £400-£500 on a cassette installation using Gree so from my business point of view they are great and so far so good with reliability.
I've been doing a bit of research on Gree and their growth rate is second to none, I would say they must be one of the biggest ac production companies worldwide.
Now in my opinion you simply cannot get to their size in this industry selling crap systems!
Also I know that Toshiba-Carrier buy Gree equipment and sell it in the far east under carrier badges because I have seen the systems on test at Carrier when I had a visit to the factory.(This was one of the reasons I gave them a go!)

Don't knock it until you've tried it....as they say!

[grump]

Dixon. It would be interesting to know how you can make £400/500 extra per unit, are you passing on any of the savings on the purchase price to your customer?Have you got an established customer base?I ran a very successful business 1972/2007 i always passed on any reduction in costs to my customer ,my margins were forced down as the market for AC took off in 1976 i was normal to make 50% gross by 2007 25% gross was good in many cases when hungry it was reduced to 10%.We made 50/60% of our income from repairs and maintenance.Grump

[Dixon]

Grump,

it's all in the marketing!!! we do have a good customer base as well which helps, however I'm not in business to pass on all the savings to customers I'm in business to make money!

I understand when you mention margins being forced down, this is why we decided to look at other suppliers instead of the big 3 or 4. So far it has worked! Repair and maintenance is a major part of our income, new F-gas regs will only make this arm of the business grow.

[nike123]

Grump,

it's all in the marketing!!! we do have a good customer base as well which helps, however I'm not in business to pass on all the savings to customers I'm in business to make money!

I understand when you mention margins being forced down, this is why we decided to look at other suppliers instead of the big 3 or 4. So far it has worked! Repair and maintenance is a major part of our income, new F-gas regs will only make this arm of the business grow.

I don't share that opinion with you. First of all, Gree and many other Chinese manufacturers, don't have engineering and manufacturing experience as Japanese counterpart. They only copying solutions of big names. Second, they don't have such rigorous selection of part suppliers and their quality control. Third, they do not provide us with support as Japanese counterpart.
But they are cheaper for nearly 50-60 percent because all that said before. And we all know that you get what you pay for. As their knowledge, service and support going to grow, also their price is going to be higher.
If I am customer, I would not pay you same amount of money for equipment whose retail price is significantly lower than reputable brand!

[grump]

Hi Dixon When the lower cost units started coming on line.I provided two quotes,sometimes my customers would test the market by getting three or more people to price for the work.After thirty five years my son has taken over the company,this month he has been asked to provide budget costs to install a VRV 3 pipe system 20 indoor units18 vam units toilet and kitchen extract we did our first job for them in 1976.
Just thought i would plant a little seed,in the meantime profits for sanity turnover for vanity. Grump

[Dixon]

Grump,

Having a customer for thirty years is fantastic, a lot of companies don't last 30 months so congratulations on that one! We sometimes do the same of offering 2 prices for different kit, totally depends on who the customer is. When I said I can make an extra £400-£500 per unit this isn't on every unit by any means, just in certain cases.

Nike,
I appreciate what you are saying by suggesting the Chinese brands are copies but what does that mean/prove? Every industry on earth has people who copy each others equipment, the motor industry being a prime example. As for parts selection and quality control, why do you say this? If you have been to the factories or have some further knowledge fair enough. I've been to a few different factories myself and seen first hand the production processes involved, from what I have seen in China some are as good as any factory in the west including Daikin.

[grump]

Dixon.Thanks for getting back,i like to get a reply unfortunately it is not always the case,one guy had a problem with a unit that went into pump down mode,every time he switched it on,he got quite a good response,in the meantime he did not get back to let us know how he resolved the problem. Grump

[nike123]

Nike,
I appreciate what you are saying by suggesting the Chinese brands are copies but what does that mean/prove? Every industry on earth has people who copy each others equipment, the motor industry being a prime example. As for parts selection and quality control, why do you say this? If you have been to the factories or have some further knowledge fair enough. I've been to a few different factories myself and seen first hand the production processes involved, from what I have seen in China some are as good as any factory in the west including Daikin.

I have some personal experience behind these mine statements. You see, when I started in this trade there is no Chinese air conditioners on our market, only names as Panasonic, Daikin, Hitachi, Mitsubishi, Toshiba, Fujitsu and few European as Bosch, De Longhi, and say Trane. And working with them was one experience. Then recently came flood of Chinese cheep air conditioners and with them totally different experience.
You could actually see when you unpack packaging that is rubbish inside. And when you hook them up, they rattling, squeaking, smelling, noisy , etc...
Then, performance in heating when low outdoor could not be comparable with big names. Yes, they are cooling but, what is their COP.
Next thing is failure rate. I was having failure rate at first 2 years with Fujitsu around 5/1000 and with them around 5-10%.
I was worked with Gree also, and my impression is that he don't differs much from other low price compatriots.

As was the case with Korean auto industry (also, air conditioning industry )before and now, I am sure that they are to become more and more similar in quality (and price) to Japanese counterpart.
I personally know that example from Fujitsu who have factory in China and produce same quality as in Japan only not their top models. Maybe this is case because factory is totally automated. Workers are only as robot operators and maintenance. Knowledge is from Japan and Chinese parts have rigorous quality and tolerance control and that points to my conclusion in previous post.

In order to have top quality products you need to have top quality staff and knowledge, and that don't cames over night, and no matter how good you are at copying.

Good example of what I saying is Korean ship industry.
Today, they have best skilled workers and best organization of work, best productivity, etc....
That came with time, not over night!

[Dixon]

I do agree with what you are saying, the Chinese are still slightly behind the Japanese products especially when we are talking about Inverter units and the technology surrounding VRF/VRV, but I have found that they are placing more and more emphasis on quality rather than price. I personally have had a bad run with Fujitsu a few years ago and so took a disliking to them!! At present I am happy to use Gree because I'm not having any issues if this changes then I may change my mind. Hopefully the 3 pipe VRF range will develop into a reliable piece of kit to challenge the big 3 or 4 brands, I honestly believe it will.

[nike123]

I do agree with what you are saying, the Chinese are still slightly behind the Japanese products especially when we are talking about Inverter units and the technology surrounding VRF/VRV, but I have found that they are placing more and more emphasis on quality rather than price. I personally have had a bad run with Fujitsu a few years ago and so took a disliking to them!! At present I am happy to use Gree because I'm not having any issues if this changes then I may change my mind. Hopefully the 3 pipe VRF range will develop into a reliable piece of kit to challenge the big 3 or 4 brands, I honestly believe it will.

Could you please say what was been wrong with these Fujitsu's.

[meehol1]

Hi
I am considering using a Gree 2 pipe system. I just hope Gree are not testing on the market which Haier and LG it seems have.
Kit looks good has a 5 year warranty period and is cheap, its hard not to go for it.