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Thread: SullAir/Jordan Valve
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02-01-2010, 07:39 PM #1
SullAir/Jordan Valve
personal stuff sorry
Last edited by jaysephus; 04-02-2010 at 05:34 PM. Reason: personal stuff sorry
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02-01-2010, 10:52 PM #2
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
I do not have much experience with Sullair compressors. Years ago they did not have a good reputation. In 1982 I ran three of them one summer. But since two of these machines are still running, they may have been better than people thought.
I saw no reference to a TX valve on Jordan's site. Of course that valve may have been installed long ago.
Onto the problem.
I would start by seeing what the superheat is at on the suction line. If it is falling rapidly that may indicate a slug. However I would think you would hear that
The valve may be opening too rapidly, but usually that would not lower the oil temperature that quickly.
I think you might want to put a thermometer on the suction line that is capable of recording a minimum temperature. That could eliminate the slugging theory.
What suction pressure do you operate at?
Send us a picture of the valve.
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02-01-2010, 11:46 PM #3
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
Jordan valves are from steam control valve type application .
Have seen the used before , they are equivilent to Danfoss TEAT control valve .
Check to see if it controls steady oil tempreture when not playing up .
Suggest it should control about 50-55 deg C discharge / oil temp .
If plant was a bit short of liquid for awhile it may open to far to try to control temp then when level ok it floods it
Seat in valve could be worn or damaged , you would have to pull it out + check .
Quantum panel should have some data logging to track what is happening .
If not you can get a data logger (one brand name is tiny tag ) and place it say on compressor rotor housing to see if liquid is coming down suction line into rotors .
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03-01-2010, 12:02 AM #4
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
personal stuff sorry
Last edited by jaysephus; 04-02-2010 at 05:35 PM. Reason: personal stuff sorry
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03-01-2010, 12:18 AM #5
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
personal stuff sorry
Last edited by jaysephus; 04-02-2010 at 05:35 PM. Reason: personal stuff sorry
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03-01-2010, 04:38 AM #6
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
I'm curious about ice making its way down rotor housing at 33 psi -19 f .
Are other machines upstream icing up the same ?
Gas may be a little wet for this to happen .
Could liquid pool at end of suction header where take off is to comp ?
As liquid builds up over time it might get liittle slugs as you describe .
Is there a drain valve off bottom of header to see if liquid there or insulation that can be removed ?
Pipe would be sticky if you put a wet finger on it ( don't get it stuck ) .
If you put data logger on instal it closer to discharge or where its has a bit of warmth , so any temp drop will be obvious .
Are all these compressors are pulling off same vessel , could level be suspect in vessel ?
Can you lower level in vessel ?
Have seen very similar problem where vessel was a bit small and it carried droplets over into header , it built up and slugged over every now and then .
Also depending on what type of liquid makeup you have , it may be open to far if manual expansion valve blasting liquid everywhere .
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03-01-2010, 11:46 AM #7
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
Hello Jaysepus
Maybe the liquid injection is the problem
Water or thermo oil cooling would be better. Is it possible to change to water cooled oil cooling?
Can the oriface size be reduced in the injection valve to reduce the possiblity of hunting?
Can the injection valve element be changed to control on the slightly lower oil temp, or can the bulb just be moved to the oil supply line, this will allow the valve to react to the low oil temps more quickly.
Kind Regards AndyIf you can't fix it leave it that no one else will:rolleyes:
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03-01-2010, 03:43 PM #8
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
personal stuff sorry
Last edited by jaysephus; 04-02-2010 at 05:36 PM. Reason: personal stuff sorry
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03-01-2010, 04:17 PM #9
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
Ice forming at 19F on the compressors takes a low superheat. Dropping 20F in five seconds take a very wet return. I would want to check the suction temp sensor for the Quantum panel. Switch it out with a functioning one if you have a identical panel.
Another problem I have seen is if you have a malfunctioning power supply. Check the output voltage (DC) of the power supply and then turn your meter to AC. This will give you the AC ripple in the DC output. It should be below one or two percent if memory serves.
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03-01-2010, 07:12 PM #10
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
personal stuff sorry
Last edited by jaysephus; 04-02-2010 at 05:36 PM. Reason: personal stuff sorry
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03-01-2010, 08:14 PM #11
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
Personally I wouldn't worry about heat trace on suction , as ice will still probably form anyway .
Normally ice will form there with little s/heat and it can get at a guess 1" thick .
Where is liquid injection entering , is it into rotor or discharge housing ?
I've been told liquid injection is about a 15% loss of efficiency , so depending on how big electric moter is power bill could add up pretty quickly if it is on 1 or more machines .
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03-01-2010, 09:11 PM #12
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
personal stuff sorry
Last edited by jaysephus; 04-02-2010 at 05:37 PM. Reason: personal stuff sorry
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03-01-2010, 09:35 PM #13
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
I think the latent heat of NH3 is way too much to evaporate a slug with heat tape.
These are the ones I used to enjoy going out on.
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03-01-2010, 10:10 PM #14
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
personal stuff sorry
Last edited by jaysephus; 04-02-2010 at 05:38 PM. Reason: personal stuff sorry
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03-01-2010, 11:02 PM #15
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
personal stuff sorry
Last edited by jaysephus; 04-02-2010 at 05:38 PM. Reason: personal stuff sorry
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04-01-2010, 02:35 AM #16
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
about 150 F is the standard on a 95 F condensing temp. Frick acutaaly likes to see about 160 discharge temp, but with liquid injection they are normally set at 150.
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04-01-2010, 09:23 AM #17
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
jaysephus ,
I think 135 F (56 deg C ) sounds good and 115 F (46 deg C ) low ,but not the end of the world .
Usually work on saturated discharge of 95 F ( 35 deg C ) + oil temp to be higher 60 F ( 15 deg C ) so oil is not diluted with refrigerant .
Depending on oil type 135 F would be about maximum for mineral oil .
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04-01-2010, 12:53 PM #18
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
In response to the Jordan valve question they do act just like a regular power head on a txv. What I do to test the power head is remove the sensing bulb from the discharge line and place it in a bucket of hot water. You should be able to see the linkage move to open the valve. The water does not have to be very hot about 140 degrees F. You should also do this while the compressor is off line. The other thing to look at is the old liquid injection solenoid valve before the Jordan valve. On the original systems there was a solid state temp. control that would not energize the solenoid valve. I would think that if either one of those components got stuck open (or manualy left open) that would cause the low discharge temperature issue that you are having. good luck
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04-01-2010, 03:39 PM #19
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
As far as I'm concerned Sullair built good refrigeration compressors. The Jordan valves inject liquid into a side port on the compressor prior to the rotors reaching discharge pressure. They can't inject into the discharge since the discharge pressure there would be slightly higher than the liquid injection pressure, right?
Ice on the compressors has to be put into context; that is , how low is the suction pressure? If the saturation temperature is below 32°F or 0°C, then it can form frost, which can eventually turn into ice. Just because a compressor has frost or ice on it does not mean liquid is present. You have to look at the discharge superheat (discharge temperature - saturation temperature at discharge pressure). IIRC Sullair used to run about 115-125°F oil injection temperatures. Therefore if you were running approx. 180 psig discharge (which equals about 95°F) you a discharge superheat of 125-95=30° to 115-95=20°. That is sufficient superheat to indicate you have no liquid in the compressor.
What usually happens during a slug is the discharge temperature will decreases very rapidly. When this occurs the discharge superheat will also drop quickly.
What you are describing sounds like an operational problem or piping issue. Let me ask one question: When the slugging occurs (whenever) is the compressor trying to load up?If all else fails, ask for help.
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04-01-2010, 10:59 PM #20
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
You have 9 high stage compressors. How many compressors do you run? Shut this compressor off. If you have the slug, sooner or later other compressor should take it. If other compressor don't take slug, problem is Jordan valve. What does happen with mentioned compressor when it shut off? Is it load or unload? What is the capacity of this compressor?
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05-01-2010, 12:03 AM #21
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
Let me back up and ask a basic question. How are you defining a slug?
If all else fails, ask for help.
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05-01-2010, 02:02 AM #22
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
personal stuff sorry
Last edited by jaysephus; 04-02-2010 at 05:39 PM. Reason: personal stuff sorry
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05-01-2010, 02:58 AM #23
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
personal stuff sorry
Last edited by jaysephus; 04-02-2010 at 05:39 PM. Reason: personal stuff sorry
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05-01-2010, 03:36 AM #24
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
For me, it looks like Jordan valve is hunting. Probably it is oversized. Try to throttle valve before or after Jordan valve(better after). Compressor should be loaded 100%. Discharge and oil temperatures should be stable not jump up and down.
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05-01-2010, 04:01 AM #25
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
It's been a long time since I messed with one of those valves. They are actually a sliding gate valve. One is fixed and the power element moves the other IIRC.
What I would like to see for data is:
Oil temp / Disc Temp / disc press / Suction press / Suction temp
when one of the slugs occur.
If the Quantum panel picks up any deviation it's just spitting out a warning that some liquid is present in the compressor.
What we don't know if the liquid is coming from the Jordan valve or the compressor suction.
Has anyone worked on the Jordan valve before this started to occur?
Once we know if the liquid is coming from the liquid injection or compressor suction then we can track down what the cause is.If all else fails, ask for help.
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05-01-2010, 02:55 PM #26
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
As I mentioned early, to test for slug this compressor should be shut off. Remaining recip. compressors are more sensitive to the slug than screw compressors. If you have slug, you will see it on recip. compressors as well.
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06-01-2010, 12:50 AM #27
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
personal stuff sorry
Last edited by jaysephus; 04-02-2010 at 05:40 PM. Reason: personal stuff sorry
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06-01-2010, 12:02 PM #28
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
jaysephus ,
" Normally " oil and discharge temp are very close .
You have a control panel which is not original , giving readings that originally wern't monitored .
If it wasn't monitored no one would probably know or suggest anything was wrong .
Jordan valve may very well be starved every now and then giving erratic readings .
Newer plants these days usually have dedicated line with preferential liquid feed line as to avoid problems you are experiencing .
Have seen some similar erratic temps on discharge temp when compressor is starving for oil injection , so mixing of oil and refrigerant happens in oil seperator instead of discharge line .
It would also be intersting to monitor oil seperator oil temp to see if it fluctuates as much as discharge temps .
Insulating liquid injection line downstream of jordan will probably only stop water on floor ,but not much else ie flash gas or anything .
Rapid fluctuating head pressure could also erratic liq feed too .
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06-01-2010, 06:33 PM #29
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
For a short time, I think you could do this, but not for a long time. The flash gas will erode the valve seat if the globe valve is throttled for too long.
[/quote]
Originally Posted by jaysephus
Originally Posted by jaysephus
Originally Posted by jaysephus
If the demand for liquid is high (check what is happening on the other users calling for liquid) and the Sullair is tail-end charlie on the liquid line you could have liquid distribution issues in the main liquid feed line to all of this.
I take it no other compressor has this issue?Last edited by US Iceman; 06-01-2010 at 06:34 PM. Reason: fixed
If all else fails, ask for help.
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07-01-2010, 02:04 AM #30
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
personal stuff sorry
Last edited by jaysephus; 04-02-2010 at 05:40 PM. Reason: personal stuff sorry
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07-01-2010, 10:06 AM #31
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
jaysephus , I would suggest manual expansion valves should be open 70 % of the time under fuul load conditions .
They can be adjusted seasonally and from your description of your plant it may be relevant .
Sorry didn't mean to put you off solving problem , sometimes you have to be there to see whats going on .
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07-01-2010, 11:04 AM #32
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
personal stuff sorry
Last edited by jaysephus; 04-02-2010 at 05:41 PM. Reason: personal stuff sorry
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07-01-2010, 03:39 PM #33
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
Originally Posted by jaysephus
Originally Posted by jaysephus
Then if for some reason the oil cooling load on one compressor decreases there is more liquid available for the remaining compressors downstream. If the Jordan valve is stroked all the way open when that occurs it has to throttle back. If it can't do this fast enough a sufficient volume of liquid may get into the compressor causing the alarms.
The flash gas in the liquid line is also caused by changes in pipe elevation. When a high pressure liquid line is installed to run vertically upwards the change in elevation reduces the liquid pressure due to static head penalties. This can be compounded installing a liquid line that is too small in diameter. This causes an increase in friction loss due to flow.
So... it is necessary to insulate a properly sized high pressure liquid line.
If you ever hear someone saying a 3/4" liquid line is sufficient for any reason you should ask them: based on what? And see what their answer is.
There are reason for why things work. Unfortunately, these are also the same reasons why things don't work.If all else fails, ask for help.
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08-01-2010, 10:38 PM #34
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
My experience with the Jordan valve for liquid injections control is that it s a very slow acting valve. Bsing slow it will either overfeed or underfeed when you get a sudden oil cooling load.
I do not like the Jordan as a LI control. Have you considered changing to a Electronic control valve?
Ken
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09-01-2010, 12:36 AM #35
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
Another good point , Danfoss TEAT are mechanical and very good as well as ICM which is electronic modulating valve .
I'd say Hansen have equivilent .
Currently there are a lot of basic things to check like
-Balancing manual expansion valves on vessel makeups .
-Possibly insulating liquid line.
Have never seen it in my experience but also never encountered this problem .
-Checking for liquid flood back using logging device .
jaysephus , what type of liquid injection valves do you have on other compressors that seem to work OK ?
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09-01-2010, 02:04 AM #36
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
personal stuff sorry
Last edited by jaysephus; 04-02-2010 at 05:41 PM. Reason: personal stuff sorry
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10-01-2010, 03:57 AM #37
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
Originally Posted by jaysephus
One minor posting note... Can you add some spaces between you paragraphs please? I have a heck of a time trying to read everything all together like that.
Thank you....If all else fails, ask for help.
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10-01-2010, 06:27 PM #38
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
personal stuff sorry
Last edited by jaysephus; 04-02-2010 at 05:42 PM. Reason: personal stuff sorry
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10-01-2010, 10:50 PM #39
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
Originally Posted by jaysephus
The only way you can prove the flashing is to install a sight glass like you mentioned earlier. For those that don't know the theory you have to show...If all else fails, ask for help.
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11-01-2010, 03:55 AM #40
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
Measurement of pipe temperature will show flashing.
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11-01-2010, 07:59 PM #41
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
Armaflex type insulation for is resonably cheap and do it yourself .
You could buy small amounts at a time so no none gets upset .
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12-01-2010, 02:08 AM #42
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
personal stuff sorry
Last edited by jaysephus; 04-02-2010 at 05:43 PM. Reason: personal stuff sorry
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12-01-2010, 04:29 AM #43
Re: SullAir/Jordan Valve
I don't think that insulation will help you. Temperature difference between condensing(liquid ammonia)temperature and compressor room temperature isn't significant. Heat transfer coefficient from air(natural convection) to liquid line isn't significant either. Very little heat(if any) will be transfered to the liquid ammonia. Why to put insulation?
Did you determine the reason of mentioned problem with your compressor?
I think that problem with Jordan valve.
May be it is slow to react. To match this, compressor should load and unload slowly. Try this.
May be it is oversized. Throttle outlet valve. Did you try this action? It doesn't require significant investment.
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