Can I install split a/c without vac pump. - Refrigeration-Engineer.com forums

Papac · #1 03-07-2009, 04:19 PM

Hi everybody,

I am about to install a 9000btu ecoair split aircon that I bought on fleabay.
I thought I was ordering a diy unit that did not need purging with a vac pump.Unfortunately for me I wasn't-I ordered standard unit which normally needs bleeding.

Rang people I bought it from and was told that if I used 5m supplied copper pipes I would still run at 95% efficiency without purging air from pipes.

I would welcome opinions on this please.

I do not have access to a vac pump and exchanging unit would be expensive and time consuming.

Thanks in advance
Papa.

Grizzly · #2 03-07-2009, 05:12 PM

Hi Papac.
I would like to know who has sold you the unit and subsequently advised you.
Certainly within the U.K. and I suspect it is the same for our colleagues within Eire?
It is illegal for anyone without a safe handling certificate to work with refrigerants.
That does depend upon what refrigerant your system is working on?
(PLEASE ADVISE!)
All that aside you are destined to struggle without the correct equipment including a vacuum pump!!!

Disaster written all over this!
Grizzly

paul_h · #3 03-07-2009, 05:23 PM

You can not install a split system without a vacuum pump.
No way in the world, full stop.
Well you can if you want to throw out the unit in 3 years or so.

Have you ever seen old wall/window a/c lasting 15 years? Or old fridges still going? I have, and that's because they were factory assembled, evacuated and charged properly.
No way in the world that a unit not installed properly with a decent pressure test and evacuation is ever going to last 5 years.

There's two things that will kill a refrigeration system. AIR is not a refrigerant, raises pressures and contains contanimants harmful to the system. MOISTURE - reacts badly to the oils used, destroys the comprsesor, may block up refrigerant control devices as it forms ice.
Purging refrigerant through the pipes is illegal and doesn't get rid of all the air or any of moisture anyway.
There's no shortcuts if you want your system to last, you need to get this part right.
edit: I don't know the laws or regs there, but if you must, get a set of gauges and a vac pump cheap on ebay. On the other hand, do you even know how to do a leak proof flare join? That fact and the price for the equipment, it isn't that hard to get someone out surely? It's worth the cost, I normally charge au$300 for everything bar the mains electrics (ie fitting the indoor, outdoor, interconnect electrics, drain, pipes, insulation, wiring and conduit from the isolator, and pipe covers etc) or $150 just to do pipework and evac if the unit is already fully installed. Thats like £70 for the piping work, cheaper than you could buy a set of gauges, a vac gauge and a vac pump anyway.

taz24 · #4 03-07-2009, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Papac

Hi everybody,

I am about to install a 9000btu ecoair split aircon that I bought on fleabay.
I thought I was ordering a diy unit that did not need purging with a vac pump.Unfortunately for me I wasn't-I ordered standard unit which normally needs bleeding.

Rang people I bought it from and was told that if I used 5m supplied copper pipes I would still run at 95% efficiency without purging air from pipes.

I would welcome opinions on this please.

I do not have access to a vac pump and exchanging unit would be expensive and time consuming.

Thanks in advance
Papa.

The true answer is yes you can, because its yours and you can do what you want with it.

But and there is always a but

You would be breaking the law if you deliberatly vented the refrigerant to purge the lines, Also as stated above you would reduce the life of the thing if you do not remove the air and moisture from the pipes. Also if you do not have a vac pump do you have access to the flareing equipment you will need to make the ends of the pipe off ready for fitting?

Sounds like we are peeing on your parade eh

but the truth is there are reasons why trained engineers get paid to install the units. One is all the tools and equipment you need to do the job correctly, another is the leagality of working with refrigerants and then there is a garentee of the quality of the work.

Your call mate, if you do it your self the likely hood of you getting caught for venting would be slim but you will reduce the life of the machine if you don't do it correctly.

taz.

.

sinewave · #5 03-07-2009, 07:19 PM

Ecoair?

Won't last a year whatever he does!

Prince Vaillant · #6 03-07-2009, 07:23 PM

See i told you it needs regulating!

harte25 · #7 03-07-2009, 07:34 PM

how long of a run do you have on the pipe work would be my first question

multisync · #8 03-07-2009, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul_h

You can not install a split system without a vacuum pump.
No way in the world, full stop.
Well you can if you want to throw out the unit in 3 years or so.

Have you ever seen old wall/window a/c lasting 15 years? Or old fridges still going? I have, and that's because they were factory assembled, evacuated and charged properly.
No way in the world that a unit not installed properly with a decent pressure test and evacuation is ever going to last 5 years.

There's two things that will kill a refrigeration system. AIR is not a refrigerant, raises pressures and contains contanimants harmful to the system. MOISTURE - reacts badly to the oils used, destroys the comprsesor, may block up refrigerant control devices as it forms ice.
Purging refrigerant through the pipes is illegal and doesn't get rid of all the air or any of moisture anyway.
.

Vac'ing out splits only came about because of the ozone cfc debate, not because of good refrigeration practice. In fact splits are only as common as they are now because of the intense de-skilling of installation proceedure the Japanese forced on the market.

For many years Fujitsu did not recommend vaccuming, they simply stated "how to purge lines-depress suction valve for 10 seconds after opening pre expansion valve"

Daikin even now recommend on a not less than figure of 10 minutes for 15 metres, hardly enough to remove moisture..

The industry has for a long time attempted to force the splits market to drop flares and pre-charging but the manufacturers know this would kill their business..

paul_h · #9 06-07-2009, 01:28 PM

meh, I've always vacced out splits,but I've only dealt with splits as far back as 1997. I'm not one to ever read installation instructions though

I'm sure others did vac them out too, because it would be pretty rare to see the amount of old splits I see still running if they were never vacc'ed. Don't forget, they don't have driers fitted. I'm pretty sure I had a vac pump before the CFC legislation

Freezers, coolrooms and chillers don't work too good without an evacuation prior to charging. I've nevr been a split basher, I'm a refrig tech that worked in other facets of the industry before I dealt with splits and domestics. I'm only dealing with them now because it's the easiest way to be self employed, dealing with the small stuff that a one man company can easily do. I could have kept to commercial until I got an office job, but I'd rather be self employed and deal with the easily handled small stuff.

I don't know the situation where you are, but the problem with splits down here is that refrig techs were never interested in them, they'd rather be doing real refrigeration or industrial than bash some whitegood up in a wall. So because of that, gas fitters, electricians and plumbers installed them to keep up with the huge demand, and lobbied the governments for rights to fit them. That's when standards got slack and bad installations occured.
I agree it could all be fixed if they weren't pre-charged. That's why I hardly ever felt sorry when the manufacturer footed the bill for all the warranty claims here

edit: If you're reading ozairman, I tried to fight the good fight, but I was told to repair and recharge by the manufacturers a few times after I proved it was an install fault, just because the manufacturers tried to keep the customer happy and the installer couldn't repair because they fought it, (because they were unlicenced to buy refrigerant, you know how it goes)

aircon rep tec · #10 06-07-2009, 07:09 PM

Aww cmon guys your being a bit harsh,, it's standard pratice for cypriot installers not to use a vac pump, they fit about 7 splits in a day over here, and i must say it certainly keeps me in business going back for the warranty breakdowns

... seriously tho, I do keep to good installation practice myself and always will, trouble is it takes longer and costs the customer more, the problem here is trying to educate people that you really do get what you pay for and if you want a unit that will last more than a year have it installed by a professional ,, it is beyond belief the amount of top of the range splits like daikin they are prepared to shell out for , then skimp on the installation !!

coolflow · #11 06-07-2009, 10:29 PM

Look just purge it..10-15 seconds and that is it..

ehowley · #12 07-07-2009, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coolflow

Look just purge it..10-15 seconds and that is it..

Oddly enough, purging was the method I was taught over 35 years ago when I started in resi installs. No vac pumps at all. As I moved into refrigeration those methods were out the door for good reason.

jason09 · #13 25-10-2009, 03:19 AM

i agree with taz, do what you like ,fill it with water until you get all the air out of it....... personally if i open a system for whatever reason it goes on vac. i find most customers are happy to pay 10% more on their bill and get the job done right first time.
that said most split systems are so cheap that its more cost effective to replace than repair , 3year warranty and all that.

cadillackid · #14 25-10-2009, 03:46 PM

I did an experiment some time ago with a lab test unit.... I think it was a lennox 2 ton standard system 10 SEER back then...

put the unit together the proper way other than I outfitted it and the lineset with flares because i knew it being in a lab I would have it apart and back together a few times...

evac'd the system down... even sucked the refrigerant out of the "precharged" condensor into a tank so i could measure how much weight there was...

then I charged it up ran it.. took the performance numbers on it...

recovered the system down to a vacuum,pushed the "precharge" to the condensor and closed the king valves...

let the lineset and evaporator coil sit wide open for a couple hours... then re-fitted the flares (it was a lab system dont flame me for re-fitting the flares)
released the charge into the system and pushed the unit through the same battery of tests i had before..

I noted that yes I lost about 3-6% of capacity.. but where it really got me was how much more energy the unit pulled.. also the non-condensables in the system caused for there to be gas pockets in the liquid line. higher head pressures.. all the same things as people mentioned above...

so the third test I ran was... putting the proper pre-charge to the condensor unit... letting the lines and evaporator stay open.. only I did it with very low humidity in my lab... no evacuation just put it back together.. ...slightly cracked the king valve on the liquid side and did a 3 second bleed off on the suction side... started it up and it ran as good as the evac'd system... within 1% energy and capacity...

so I cant condone the bleed method because of regulations but I can say that it did work.... for R-22..

for R-410a I would say the ONLY way is a COMPLETE evacuation..well for any system i say that because thats the BEST way... oh and obviously the laws and the charge needs to be dead on target for the unit to work right...
-Christopher
P.S. that old lab system is still running great in a friend's house now... flare fittings that were opened and closed numerous times, the heavy duty testing i put it through and all...

sedgy · #15 25-10-2009, 05:16 PM

coolflow, cowboy, spain,
what have they all got in common?

aircon50 · #16 26-10-2009, 01:10 AM

If a system has been opened for whatever reason, either from new install, or from repair, however quick, there is only one way of preparing to put it back into service - evacuation. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but purging is illegal, because in involves venting a certain amount, intentionally to atmosphere.
As has been quite rightly said, air on it's own is bad enough, but it contains moisture, and as such is the prime enemy of any refrigeration system.
I too, 35+ years ago, was taught to purge, but only because the company didn't have enough vac pumps for all service vans!
If this site is, in any way shape or form, serving to promote professionalism, then we should not be condoning these poor practices.
Rant over. This is a superb site with a wealth of information from all corners of the world. Graham

Sridhar1312 · #17 26-10-2009, 10:17 AM

Even when the system is vacuumed and charged leakages occur in split systems.Although indoor and out door units come from factory the quality of refrigerant piping beyond five meters are done locally where the manufacturer does not have any control .
Hence it is essential to pressure test depending on refrigerant and then vacuumize and charge refrigerant.

Lancelot · #18 27-10-2009, 06:58 PM

I always do a vacuum and it's not time consuming, I vacuum the unit while I gather my tools so it takes about 15 minutes, after I let it rest for about another 15 minutes while I tchat with my client a bit, and if the vacuum holds, then I open the valves. I've installed over 50 splits and always in the same manner and I didn't have a call back yet. There is one important thing though, always make sure that your tubing is capped on the ends, remove the caps when you are ready to hook them on your a\c and not sooner,that way moisture won't get inside and moisture in a system is a major pain in the butt!!!

Lancelot · #19 27-10-2009, 07:00 PM

Right you are, aircon50 my friend!

Lancelot · #20 27-10-2009, 07:14 PM

It's so true Taz...

El Padre · #21 31-10-2009, 02:57 PM

Are we all correct in assuming that you purchased the unit without pre-charged lines?
Anyone remember the name of those connectors"Aeroquip" or something similar.

Cheers

Quality · #22 31-10-2009, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Padre

"Aeroquip".

Cheers

Quality products, but not in this application

marc5180 · #23 31-10-2009, 06:41 PM

I'm sure if you ask nice enough, someone from this site will come and vac the system out for you and even flare the copper pipes.......for a price

al · #24 31-10-2009, 09:03 PM

Judging by the fact he hasn't come back.........reckon that would explain the nice mild october in Dublin....

al

tonyhavcr · #25 01-11-2009, 04:38 PM

whirlpool some time back would only let tech purge there systems no vacuum pumps could be used it took to long they said. This went on to the number of frigs going back over and over for new compressors was so large and there customer base was mad as heck they wen back to the vacuum pump. It took years for them to get there name back.

sean · #26 05-11-2009, 03:47 PM

You know what they say lads
moisture is the mother of all f##k ups...??

Lancelot · #27 05-11-2009, 04:47 PM

Sean that is sooooo true !!!!

Lancelot · #28 05-11-2009, 04:56 PM

The other thing I like about doing a vacuum, is that if you have a leak it shows almost instantly when you close your gages and stop the pump, even if it's a small one.

When you put pressure in a system, if the leak is very small, you may not see it at first, I've experienced that a few times.

Deniver45 · #29 18-11-2009, 01:09 PM

it's as easy to do something right as it is to do something wrong.

Doing it RIGHT is personal with me. Sure you could PURGE the air out of the lines with more refrigerant = ILLEGAL and IMMORAL.

STILL the bottom line IS that you have no business fooling with a AC unit since YOU COULD burn your house down with a hasty installation.

If you don't have a vacuum pump; then your'e doing it wrong wether you own it or not.

Moisture in the system will decrease:
1. It's life.
2. It's effeciency AND

3. Eat more electricity.

In the end if you take all the above $$ into consideration; then it would PROBABLY be more costwise for you to just GO buy a new vacuum pump.

USE IT ONE TIME, then SELL it on RAGBAY and get MOST your money back.

I am ashamed to say I wasted my TIME typing all this for this issue.

jackfrost2 · #30 21-11-2009, 01:42 AM

yes you can, but without a vac you will have or customer will have problems later on, I do remember in the distant past, vac using the compresser on the system it will not be perfect but could be better than not doing it, moisture is a killer.