Thailand - A warning to others

[thaibeware]

I have been asked to bring this issue to the attention of the members of RE, by a fellow member, whose identity should remain anonymous, for reasons of personal safety. This person is not a Thai national. He is utterly devastated by the events that follow.

Background:
1. A full set of component details suitable for building a prototype heat-pump were supplied to a 'reputable' airconditioning manufacturer, in Bangkok, Thailand.
2. The design of the system was 100% the property of the designer - in other words the intellectual property resided completely with the designer.
3. The 'reputable' company was commissioned to quote on a suitable evaporator, box & fan to meet specification & to assemble the machine to designer's requirements.
4. The designer paid for the first prototype in full before the build commenced.
5. The first prototype was built, after many difficulties, & performance-tested at the builders' premises.
6. The designer then commissioned a second prototype to be built using the same components, but in a smaller box.
7. The second machine was also paid for, cash up-front.
8. The second machine was eventually built - difficulties included.


RHVAC 2009:
At a recent Trade Show (RHVAC 2009, Bangkok), the designer was requested to show his second heat-pump on the assembler's trade booth. This was understood to be in good faith & as a way to encourage new business.

On the first day of the trade show, the assembler's new product brochure arrived. On page 31, they listed a range of new heat-pumps they now manufactured. The picture of the unit was that of the designer's first prototype machine. No request for the picture had been asked for, nor obtained. This company had never previously 'officially' been in the heat-pump business, but did assemble for small designer/builders, upon request.

Upon observing this, the designer immediately instructed the assembler to remove his heat-pump from the booth, package it & return it to his company premises. This was done. This had to be done due to the clear conflict-of-interest situation that had arisen.

A metter of ethics?
When questioned as to why the assembler had acted in this manner, the answer was:
1. They could no remove the offending picture as the brochures had already been printed;
2. They considered it normal practice in the industry for companies to steal the IP from other companies;
3. They were utterly unrepentant in the matter.

Legal protection
Under Thai law, the designer will have very little real recourse to justice. At best, a very expensive, slow, legal battle would ensue, which would invariably exceed its statute-of-limitations of 10 years, before expiring.

Warning to foreigner developers
Please be very careful when building products in Thailand, as your IP will not be protected. Quite the contrary, it will be open season on your know-how.


Please be very, very careful when trusting in Thailand.

Edited by Frank.......Please do not name and shame in public. If you have a gripe with the Company, take it up with them directly.

[thaibeware]

If further detals are required from any RE members, I am able to act in my friend's behalf.

Please contact via RE private mail.

This thread was set up without malice, & as a warning to foreign designers wishing to manufacture products in Thailand. My friend's experiences, aftersome investigation, turn out to be a rather common occurence.

[multisync]

It's pretty obvious who you are referring too..Sorry to hear this as he's a great contributor to this forum

[thaibeware]

Edited by Frank.......Please do not name and shame in public. If you have a gripe with the Company, take it up with them directly.

To set the record straight in this regard, the (Thailand) was contacted directly, & as stated in the OP, were completely unresponsive, or repentant in this issue. There remains no real further recourse for my friend to pursue, other than to warn other foreign developers regarding the unfair IP practices followed in Thailand.

They considered it standard business practice to steal the IP from others - not only their competitors. This was "normal" they said.

In this regards, the name & shame theme for this thread should, as a fair warning to others, also carry the name of the Thai manufacturer involved. The difficulties that this could bring are understood.

The fact that the owner of *** is also the Chairman should also be retained, as this esential to understanding the Thai view regarding IP, as a whole.

Please bare with the theme, if at all possible. It will send a strong message to future potential victims.

[eggs]

Plase be very, very careful when trusting in Thailand.

But she/he said "I love you looooooong time Mr eggs" I had a close escape that time.....

Cheers

Eggs

[coolhibby1875]

sorry to be so blunt but this is just the same as trusting a known theif with your car keys, You just wouldnt, there is a famous old saying that a fool and there cash is easily parted!!

[mad fridgie]

sorry to be so blunt but this is just the same as trusting a known theif with your car keys, You just wouldnt, there is a famous old saying that a fool and there cash is easily parted!!

I think this comment is a little unfair, at some point you have to trust somebody if you want to bring an innovation to market. (as sort happened in this case)
I commend Thaibeware for informing us of the situation and naming the company involved.
I also feel deep sympathy for the person who has been shafted. (and hopefully not all his ideas have been stolen)

[frank]

The problem with naming and shaming on the forum is that you can leave the forum Owner and Moderators open to legal consequences.

We are not aware of the history of the dispute and can only read or sympathize with the posters comments

Slander is to defame verbally, and Libel is to defame with the written word.

We have to protect ourselves against any possible legal repercussions.

Perhaps you can now understand why the thread has been Moderated. Please do not refer to the firm or company by name.

[Brian_UK]

Also, if this is common practice in Thailand then naming a single company does not acheive anything constructive.

Any designer following this route should always get a safe contract agreed before proceeding.

[mad fridgie]

Good points Frank, thanks

[Gary]

I think this comment is a little unfair, at some point you have to trust somebody if you want to bring an innovation to market. (as sort happened in this case)

This is very true.

Any designer following this route should always get a safe contract agreed before proceeding.

Safe contracts are like bullet-proof vests. Some are more bullet-proof than others, and in the end all are at best bullet-resistant.

It comes down to trust.

[Brian_UK]

Safe contracts are like bullet-proof vests. Some are more bullet-proof than others, and in the end all are at best bullet-resistant.

It comes down to trust.

Very well put Gary.

[thaibeware]

I think this comment is a little unfair, at some point you have to trust somebody if you want to bring an innovation to market. (as sort happened in this case)

Trust, based on a long friendship. formed the initial basis for the first development project. Under that, a certain amount of IP was exposed, as a test of 'good faith'. Certain elements of IP were not disclosed, to be implemented at developer's own site.

I commend Thaibeware for informing us of the situation and naming the company involved.

This does need to be done, unfortunately, in some cases - in order to pre-warn other smaller developers who may be considering SE Asia as a cost-effective development base.

I also feel deep sympathy for the person who has been shafted. (and hopefully not all his ideas have been stolen)

Never put all the eggs in one basket.

[thaibeware]

The problem with naming and shaming on the forum is that you can leave the forum Owner and Moderators open to legal consequences.

We are not aware of the history of the dispute and can only read or sympathize with the posters comments

Slander is to defame verbally, and Libel is to defame with the written word.

We have to protect ourselves against any possible legal repercussions.

Perhaps you can now understand why the thread has been Moderated. Please do not refer to the firm or company by name.

Your actions & thoughts are well received. Thank you for allowing the modified thread to remain in place.

It would perhaps be enough that other developers are warned, beforehand, about the dangers of doing business in parts of the world where western-style ethics are not considered the norm.

[thaibeware]

Also, if this is common practice in Thailand then naming a single company does not acheive anything constructive.

This practice, & more, is indeed common practice amongst Thai companies.

Any designer following this route should always get a safe contract agreed before proceeding.

There are NO 'safe contracts' with jurisdiction within Thailand, unfortunately.

An example is the case of a 10-year legal battle between a US cable-developer & a former Thai PM, which was repeatedly stalled in the Thai courts, until it's 'sell-by' date expired.

Small to medium-sized developers cannot afford the time, efforts & costs to entertain such systems of justice, as justice is seldom servd in the foreigner's behalf.

So, the essence is firstly trust, secondly contractual.

In this case, the trust element was broken at an early stage, by the Thai assembler.

[thaibeware]

Originally Posted by Gary
Safe contracts are like bullet-proof vests. Some are more bullet-proof than others, and in the end all are at best bullet-resistant.

It comes down to trust.

Brian_UK:
Very well put Gary.

Seconded. Trust is the essence of all business relationships.

The concept of ethics in Thailand:
1. It is not about right, or wrong;
2. It is about not getting caught;
3. Apology & restitution are only extracted under duress;
4. It is all about 'saving face'.

So, to steal IP from another is considered to be a 'smart' thing to do (chalaat) - if you can get away with it. To get caught, or exposed, may cause you to lose face - this presents you with a problem & should be resolved.

This name & shame thread goes part way towards progressing the 'loss of face' component for the Thai manufacturer concerned.

The foreigner involved will, in all likelihood, never see justice, or restitution, in this matter - that is the way Thailand tends to reward foreigners who do not have the financial, or political connections/muscle to take them head-on. Matters are often settled out-of-court by hitmen & force. It is not a place for the faint-hearted.

Please be suitably warned.

[thaibeware]

Examples of the brutal tactics used in Thailand can be seen on some of the expat web-forums spread around Thailand.

Western housing developers regularly gunned down, or murdered, in contractual disputes, or turf wars.

On the surface, Thailand has tried to sanitise its image abroad, but, under the surface it remains a place controlled by dark elements & tribal power groups.