AKV versus higher load

[Budokan]

I actually agree - simple is best, when I started as an apprentice there were still a few supermarkets that had equipment that was controlled solely by an lp switch.

However everything has to be seen to be energy efficient now. As for the AKV valves I find them easier to work on, i feel you get a better or quicker picture of what is happening. If one fails you can replace the internal parts which would make it a cheaper repair than a TEV and most end user would not allow flared valves.

[Peter_1]

If one fails you can replace the internal parts which would make it a cheaper repair than a TEV and most end user would not allow flared valves.

1. Accessories for AKV, pricelist Danfoss, gross Euro price
Piston 60.72 Euro, gasket set 1.5 euro, Upper part 91 Euro
Coil 43 Euro. A complete new TEv 76.65 Euro

2. Few of my end user know what a TEV is, so if it's soldered or flared, they don't care. The only thing they care is that they pay as less as possible for a good quality and that they don't see you back for al ong time - at least not for a repair.

I will diagnose a TEV and you an AKV. You will need a resistance meter and temperature probes or your costly hand unit (which they hopefully will not re-design when the next generation AKV comes out)
I will come with only my temperature probes.
In the time you have figured out if the coil has failed or one of the sensors perhaps failed, the electronics failed, walked through the menu of your hand unit if everyting is set as it should be, I'm long gone to my next client and bin will working again.
And then you have to be lucky that you have the spare parts in your van.

If you take then the labour cost for this repair, the AKV has to run for along time to save back this labour costs.

You always can install a Sporlan Q valve, it's a soldered version but to repair it, you only need a couple of wrenches.
Or use STEK couplings on the standard flared TEV's.

It's like in the new cars: what is in most cars the first failure: the electronics. There was another thread in MAC where they discussed this topic.


Still not convinced but it's like Mark said, everybody has his own opinion which I respect.
But till now, nobody has come with real figures, neutral test reports (do they excist?), big savings or real fiirmly based statements.

[Latte]

Got to agrree with peter & say spot on.

What can go wrong with a tev, Either complete unit £30 or just orrifice & filter £6 (Parts Prices) now how does that compare to AKV.
An argument for an AKV could be with the use of 5 probes (Note Mark) instead of 3 on a tev is that you can get more information but do you really need it. 99% of the time the eev's suffer due to either loose or Probes gone & most engineers don't need pretty graphics on a computer to diagnose this.

Stick with Air on/ air off & defrost probes & TEV's

Mark, i thought you would prefer TEV's being a "M" dedicated engineer

Regards

Raymond

[Budokan]

Raymond,

The AKV versus TEV debate depends on your perspective. In an ideal world all engineers working on supermarket contracts would be able to diagnose faulty TEV and replace them but due to the lack off skillbase with some contractors and end users using in store technicians to do fridge work this does not always happen. In a manager/supervisor situation it is a lot easier to diagnose online or over the phone with an AKV system, it is easy for anyone to replace a probe and relatively easy to instruct and engineer how to change the piston in an AKV.

[Latte]

Raymond,

The AKV versus TEV debate depends on your perspective. In an ideal world all engineers working on supermarket contracts would be able to diagnose faulty TEV and replace them but due to the lack off skillbase with some contractors and end users using in store technicians to do fridge work this does not always happen. In a manager/supervisor situation it is a lot easier to diagnose online or over the phone with an AKV system, it is easy for anyone to replace a probe and relatively easy to instruct and engineer how to change the piston in an AKV.

How many of you outthere are able to go online and access readings.

somehow i don't think that i will become a often used tool for engineers for security reason although it would be a very useful one


Regards

Raymond

[Budokan]

Raymond,

The strange thing is it has been used for years (I used it at leat 10 years ago) then all of a sudden everyone is talking about security concerns.

Shame you don't have access, it is suprising how many out of hours call outs that can be avoided once you have had a look.

[Latte]

Hi Guys,
It is suprising how many callouts are non calls these days.
The trouble is now with more and more sites having alarm facilaties more stupid calls come in. The most common one is being called out to a coldroom alarming out high temp only to find the door is wide open.
Probe 5 faults is another one in the middle of the night is another one that wind's me up. Stupid things that can be left another few hours for want of logging on instead of getting up in the middle of the night and being knackered all day.
I hope that one day the dial in facility will be more widely used over here by engineers to save stupid calls, even if it saves one journey in summer when you have 40 outstanding calls it will help

Regards

Raymond

[Peter_1]

Raymond,

In an ideal world all engineers working on supermarket contracts would be able to diagnose faulty TEV and replace them but due to the lack off skillbase with some contractors and end users using in store technicians to do fridge work this does not always happen. In a manager/supervisor situation it is a lot easier to diagnose online or over the phone with an AKV system, it is easy for anyone to replace a probe and relatively easy to instruct and engineer how to change the piston in an AKV.

I worked in a company which supervised +/-30 supermarkets and none of them had AKV's (except in one store where 5 bins had an AKV for testing purposes) It is not a need that there is de facto an AKV to monitor or supervise a supermarket.
You receive the same readings with a TEV (Air on, Air out , Coil temperature, SV open or closed) .
You don't need more parameters to figure out via a remote PC what's going on.

Don't tangle the fact that an AKV can only be controlled or monitored by a Danfoss system. There are a lot more other and cheaper possibilities available. And you may have the most sophisticated supervising system,; at least someone has to go on site to repair the faulty parts.

And not anyone can replace a piston in an AKV. If you let do these things by whatever tech, it's first not allowed, it's illegal.
It's even dangerous if he is not aware of the possible dangers, how he need to pump down the AKV, that gas can come out the AKV when opening it,

Correct replacing and diagnosing a TEV is in my opinion the basic of the basics of refrigeration. And if someone don't understand what the purpose of a TEV is, then h definitely won't know what an AKV is doing. You first need to know how a TEV is working before you can understand an AKV.

If you have to rely on that sort of techs, then you should better do it yourself or let the work done by companies who have techs who know what they're doing.
I don't say that you are such a tech, I'm just talking in general.

[Budokan]

Replacing/diagnosing a TEV is on of the most basic skills however there are certain contractors who have large contracts and employ electricians or engineers with a little bit of knowledge. This is not ideal but it is comonplace.

I seem to be becoming the defender of AKV valves, which is not really the case. Most of the equipment I am involved with use TEV, personally I would much prefer a well designed conventional pack with good control system than any low energy system.

I personally know some technicians who trained as electricians and have work as in store technicians and know what a AKV is, they have never seen a TEV, they can pump down a case, strip down an AKV, replace a probe - it maybe poor or illegal but it happens and will continue to happen.

As for the remote monitoring most supermarket chains either have or are putting in place remote monitoring were a third party company will diagnose before an engineer attends and check on the engineers actions on site through an activity log.