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Thread: fault on a daikin Roundflow
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09-05-2008, 09:40 PM #1
fault on a daikin Roundflow
Got called to a fault yesterday at a restaurant that we have just taken on. the fault was no cooling from the indoors.
After looking around i found that the system was a twin with refnets (not 2 seperate circuits). Both indoor fans were running although there was no cooling. I went to the condensor and the compressor was running, condensor fans were running so i decided to put on my guages.
On the suction i had 4 bar and the discharge was 15 bar (R410A), i went down to the van to get something then i came back up and the pressures had dropped to 1 bar suction and 4 bar discharge......easy, i thought....it's short of refrigerant. As it was late on when i got the call i told the manager i would be back tomorrow with a reclaim bottle to sort it out.
Today i went back, i recovered 400g. the standard charge was 4.3kg for up to 30m.. whoever installed this didn't write on how much additional refrigerant was added (this really does annoy me). The pipes disappear through ceilings, walls and floors but i think the total run is about 40m for the 2 of them. I pressure tested the system up to 25 bar and connected my gauge lines to the service ports as i always do, checked everywhere for a leak and i found a small leak on a schrader near the 4 way valve. Once it was fully vacced out i recharged but only managed to get in 2.5kg, i tried to start it up but i couldnt get it to run for long enough. The condensor fans would start up then the compressor but it would only run for a few seconds. I spoke to a guy from daikin who told me how to put it on test, i did this and managed to get the standing charge in it.
However when it was running the high side kept shooting up to 35 bar very fast as though there was a blockage somewhere, i checked that the expension device in the condensor was working and also the 4 way valve- they both were. When i turned the unit off by the isolator the standing pressure was 22bar, i told this to the daikin guy and he said there must be nitrogen still in the system. He asked me how i had pressure tested it, so i told him and he said i should never pressure test from the service ports because nitrogen can get trapped ( it's news to me) he advised to reclaim and vac out again- which i did
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
Marc
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09-05-2008, 09:50 PM #2
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
When i went to recharge it i managed to get the full 4.3kg in it and i started it up but in test mode, the pressures looked ok again a little low but the suction coming back was cold, i tried to add a little more refrigerant and i added 0.5kg more, however the next minute the suction pressure started dropping and dropping until it was at 1 bar, the liquid pressure was 5 bar.
I went insided to check the indoor units and the master unit fan was running but the slave unit fan wasnt running for some reason, there was power to it but it weren't running. I stripped the unit down to look at the connection on the back of the motor and where it plugs into the board and it seemed ok. When i went back to the master indoor it was coming off at 7DegC although it was on forced test mode.
I started to look at the wiring and found p1 + p2 from the master going to the controller and also to the slave but in the slave p2 wasn't connected. How do these units communicate with each other???
Because the restaurant was getting busy by now i had to leave but before i left i went to the out door and after taking it off test watched it for a few minutes and again the Fan, then the compressor would start for about 10 seconds then go off, then come back on after 3 minutes, then it would go off again....... It's been a long day i i need some helpThe difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
Marc
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09-05-2008, 09:57 PM #3
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
Sorry condensor model number is an RZQ140B8W1B and the indoors are the 71type and they only have 1 controller for the 2 of them...... Sorry for the long post
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
Marc
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10-05-2008, 08:53 AM #4
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
Marc
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10-05-2008, 10:10 AM #5
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
Hi Marc
Your indoor units should be of equal distance from the refnet connection. As for the remote controller wiring the P1/P2 from the controller should only go to one of the fan coils. If you had two different models ie four way blow and floor mount the controller wiring should go to the fan coil with the most features swing lourver etc. I suggest you sort out the remote control wiring and ensure that you have field setting 11-0-02 set in so that the system knows that its a twin setup.
Hope this helps
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10-05-2008, 10:14 AM #6
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
Also it sounds to me like the system is shutting down on freeze protection.
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10-05-2008, 11:39 AM #7
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
The thing is though, this has been running for about 1 year, another engineer went around christmas time and carried out the maintenance on it. i've spoken to him and he says it was definatly working, which leads me to think how can there be a problem with the wiring and also the refnet issue. Why would the indoor fan not run?? i mean it could also be a problem with the indoor board couldn't it?
The condensor runs as though its going into pump down mode with the hp staying around 15bar but the suction dropping down to 1bar.The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
Marc
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11-05-2008, 10:57 AM #8
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
...............[When i turned the unit off by the isolator the standing pressure was 22bar, i told this to the daikin guy and he said there must be nitrogen still in the system. He asked me how i had pressure tested it, so i told him and he said i should never pressure test from the service ports because nitrogen can get trapped ( it's news to me) he advised to reclaim and vac out again- which i did]
Did you energize the 4 way valve when reclaiming/charging. I.e did you supply power to the control circuit? If it's got LP protection it won't fire up so don't worry, if it hasn't simply remove the pot connections!
That's why Daikin are very specific and always have been to be fair regarding pressure testing procedure.
With the four way valve non-energized you will either have trapped gas or non condensibles held in the pipe work within the condenser.
Did the dials on your gauges bounce consistently when observing pressures? This would be conclusive if so, or was it a nice steady rise??
Also do take readings from the secondary set of internal service valves provided for true readings, not the external valves!!
Best of luck.
J.Last edited by Daikin=Overated; 11-05-2008 at 11:01 AM.
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11-05-2008, 12:44 PM #9
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
Hi when i reclaimed the refrigerant i turned the power off by the isolator, so there would have been no power to the control circuit.
With regards to the pressure, it rose consistently right up to at 1 point 38bar, as the fans work off temperature though, the 2nd fan should have kicked in to bring the head pressure down but it didnt even come on.
I left it the other day and the suction pressure got down to 1 bar with the discharge at about 15 as though its pumping itself down.The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
Marc
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11-05-2008, 08:39 PM #10
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
Anyone? I'm going back to the job tomorrow first thing.
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
Marc
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11-05-2008, 09:54 PM #11
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
Hi marc. I agree with Puddleboy3,.
First i would Sort the wiring to the second unit and see if it performs any better. I guess you will have to reclaim and recharge with fresh gas and since you will have the gas out you should really sort the pipe run out. I wouldnt worry to much about your condenser fans right now.
For sure get the install to spec and take it from there. Keep us posted,.. Have a good one.
stu.
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12-05-2008, 01:56 AM #12
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
hi
Whats all this about equal pipe distances from twin's refnets. I have seen loads of twins with different lengths. I thought there was a limit but its determined by difference in lenghs from a calculation?
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12-05-2008, 02:21 PM #13
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
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12-05-2008, 08:29 PM #14
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
Just an update, went back today. Spoke to daikin who said that they don't have to be exactly the same length although it is advisable.....Anyway...
Got back to the unit this morning, master fan was running but slave fan wasn't. Went to the condensor and found the compressor would come on for a few seconds then go off the same as it was doing on friday. I decided to put on my inverter checker. Then i turned on the condensor and put it in test mode where as normally all 6 lights should flash faster and faster untill they appear to be on this didn't 5 of the lights came on very dim and flashed 3 times then it went off on a fault. Spoke to daikin and they say to replace the inverter board.
I went inside and checked the interconnecting wiring and the controller was wired as it should be. I then spoke to daikin who took me through to codes "21" and "43" to check if the controller recognised the 2 units and which one was the master and the slave. Daikin said these setting were correct so i pressed the test on the controller and came out of the settings which gave me the "88" sign, however when they came back on i had a "AU" fault appear which i couldn't get rid of. I spoke to 4 different technical guys with each one suggesting different things from going back through the settings on the controller to replacing the interconnecting wiring.
From here I disconnected the controller from the master and wired it into the slave and didn't get the "UA" fault, so i decided to change the boards to see if the fault followed the board which it did.
I've ordered a new indoor board but i'm still not confident that this was the root of the problem.The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
Marc
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12-05-2008, 08:35 PM #15
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
Could the master board fault cause the slave fan not to run, even though the master fan runs?
Also if it there was only 1 indoor unit and the evap fan wasn't running i would expect to see very low suction pressures at the condensor but would it still be the same with a twin? with only one fan running?The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
Marc
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12-05-2008, 09:40 PM #16
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
Hi marc,
Thanks for the update. It sounds like a lot of faults to come up all together.
Before you put on your inverter check had there been any history of faults on the system?. Just sounds a little strange how it is wired wrong, not commissioned correctly and had a gas problem!!. Did you reclaim it or check how it was and should have been wired?,
Also when you left it you said it was 'pumping its self down'. Now the inv board and indoor board is faulty?!.
Maybe we are missing something here.
Im a believer in getting the basics right and taking it from there. Would hate to have fitted the new boards and it still not work,although we have all been there,
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12-05-2008, 10:00 PM #17
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
Hi, I had a similar wiring issue recently. C/u would nt recognise the two f/c s on a twin. Slave had 240 at the interconnecting terminal, but no led blinking. Turned out to be a 5A fuse in a small black holder next to the 1234 connections. Re set and it should recognise both units. Hope this helps, if its not too late.
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12-05-2008, 10:06 PM #18
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
What's the schematic wiring of this system?
Jase
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12-05-2008, 10:28 PM #19
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
I asked the manager had there been any faults flash up on the controller since it had been installed, i did check the controller history and it came up with a fault but i cant remember what it was but when i looked up the code it said inverter problem...but i do not know how recent the fault was because you can't check it.
when i said it was pumping itself down, i meant thats what it looks like it is doing. when i first start it up it runs fine for a while, the pressures look a little low but when i've been to both indoors and felt the liquid and suction and they are both icy cold. now the master fan does run but the slave doesn't run but it should because it is controlled by the on coil thermister R2T i think ( iv checked this and it works) but the fan doesn't come on. after running for a while then the suction pressure starts to drop as low as 1bar which is what i meant by it's pumping down. Would the 2nd fan not running cause the suction pressure to drop as low as this?The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
Marc
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12-05-2008, 10:30 PM #20
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12-05-2008, 10:45 PM #21
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
What operating pressures temperatures have you recorded so far. I would expect around 100-120psi Ps and 300psi+ Pd. You may have restriction in the system
Jase
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12-05-2008, 10:58 PM #22
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
I think a wiring diagram would really help shed some light on the control circuit if anyone can provide one for our viewing pleasure?
I thought the fan control was operated through pressure switches (they used to be on the older models) and not through the PCB?? Do you mean the PCB switches the fans through relays via the pressure control switches??
You may still not be achieving the correct head pressure because of restrictions/non -condesables as previously suggested, or that the presuure switch isn't functional hence second fan not engaging.
Have you checked to see what pressure the fans should be engaging, then testing to see your getting voltage through the switch to the fans-then you can say relay on control circuit is defective?
I had a fault with an old Daikin sky air (same fan control issue) after charging the system. Found the relay wasn't switching the fan's in. Checked the tracks on the back of the PCB and found a dry solder joint going to the relay coil..........check, and double check!
JLast edited by Daikin=Overated; 12-05-2008 at 11:05 PM.
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12-05-2008, 10:59 PM #23
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
When i first starts up it runs at around 5 bar (75psi) suction and around 20 bar (300 psi) discharge. when it was running on friday i did notice that both liquid and suction in the condensor were starting to frost over heavily........ Theres definatly no blockage in the system, i blew through with nitrogen today and undid all flare nuts to scheck that nitrogen was coming through.
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
Marc
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12-05-2008, 11:03 PM #24
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
I know it is getting long, just want to be sure i include everything that i have tried. lol
Both the condensor and evap fans work off temperature not pressure. There are no non condensables in the system for sure, it has been vacced out and recharged twice, that i am certain of.The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
Marc
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12-05-2008, 11:11 PM #25
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12-05-2008, 11:19 PM #26
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
Where was it frosting up on both suction/discharge??
From the service valves and pipe work back to indoor, or within the condensor?
Shouldn't be frosting up on discharge in the condenser unless theres an EEV fitted in there somewhere. Again a drawing would identify these things.
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12-05-2008, 11:22 PM #27
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
It was freezing up on the suction and liquid line and service valves in side the condensor didnt check the indoor pipework because there were people in the restaurant so i couldnt get above the ceiling, there is an LEV inside the condensor which i had swapped with another similar unit.
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
Marc
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13-05-2008, 02:27 PM #28
Hi Marc, just want to concentrate and add comment to what is happening to the refrigeration side of this problem, do not rule out the possibility of moisture in the system, I have had a system before that would run ok then gradually seem as though it had a blockage and moisture was the problem as ice particles form on the inside of the EEV during operation causing a blockage, then defrosting when the compressor stops. This caused the unit to do all sorts of weird stuff as its sensors were reading wrong and pressures went haywire.
Water ingress had occured in this instance due to a cracked suction flare nut, the suction would freeze (naturally as you would be evapourating below freezing point with a unit Short Of Gas) at some point ran into a vacuum and sucked in moisture as the suction pipe defrosted, then the system would be reset and the process would start over again intergrating more moisture in there.
2 attempts were made by another engineer to clear this moisture by blowing with nitrogen and filter driers to no avail. I then attended site and removed the compressor and empitied out the oil into a 2 pint glass container, it settled and seperated to reveil almost 5% of the oil was water. So new oil, nitrogen purge, triple vac and oversize drier was installed, we then attended site two weeks later and tested the system to find moisture still there, did same procees again and next time all was well, this was 5 years ago now and the units still working.
Point I am saying is that you state in an earlier email that you found a leak on a shrader was this shrader on the suction side, and I assume the frost starts after the EEV if so there is a good chance of you having a similar problem as we had.
One pointer to check for this is to see if the unit takes longer for the pressure to equalise than you would expect it to as the ice in the EEV defrosts equalistation will speed up. Good luck
P.S dont forget new rerfigerant also every re-charge.Last edited by coolments; 13-05-2008 at 02:29 PM. Reason: fogot summat
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13-05-2008, 10:02 PM #29
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
Marc : So where do you pressure test from then.
Freecool
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13-05-2008, 10:27 PM #30
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
Marc ...........what's the latest?
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13-05-2008, 10:48 PM #31
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
Coolments- the leak that i found was on a schraeder on the discharge on the 4 way valve, when the system was under pressure i tested all the flare nuts for any sign of a leak and none was found. I guess the only way for me to prove this is to leave under pressure overnight but i dont think i'm going to get the chance.
Freecool- I pressure tested from the service ports where you connect the suction and liquid pipes to but i should have used the internal schrader ports inside the condensor. on this system there was one on the 4 way valve and one near the EEV.The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
Marc
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13-05-2008, 10:52 PM #32
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
I went to the suppliers to get a price this morning just for a new indoor board, got the price then gave it to our office to fax it over to the client who i was hoping would approve it and i could get it ordered next day delivery, meaning that i could go back there tomorrow. However when i spoke to the office they said that they are going to claim under the warranty from the company that put it in. If that is the case then i wont know what the problem is/was
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
Marc
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13-05-2008, 11:29 PM #33
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
Outdoor fans are controlled by both outdoor air temperature and reading from pressure transducer.
If the inverter PCB was faulty you would have a fault code @ the remote plus when attaching the inverter tester to sky air systems they dont have an inverter test function so the PCB thinks there is a fault as there is no current draw. I know that with splits if you put them in to fan only test this runs the inverter components with out going out on a fault. Cant remember if this works on Sky air?
I would be concentrating on why your slave unit is not running! Also in service mode settings you can only set the master! ie mode 41 for reading sensors you cant read anything from the slave! If you can then your not on a twin system.
Think you'll find that there is something silly wrong stand back from your system and have a coffee!
Get your hands on the Daikin transmission monitor for a better idea of whats happening again I think that if your system is shutting down with no fault codes it will be something to do with freeze protection!
Happy days
Last edited by puddleboy3; 13-05-2008 at 11:33 PM.
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17-05-2008, 12:55 PM #34
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
Cant you get the PArt direct from Daikin? As its still under warranty ?
Poor Customer will have to go through all this again with the original company who installed the system
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21-05-2008, 07:51 PM #35
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05-06-2008, 05:37 PM #36
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
Just an update, we have been instructed to carry out the repair of this unit ( i know it's been 3 weeks) but the company who installed it has gone bust so we have managed to get the indoor board from daikin under warranty.
I'm not looking forward to going back, fitting the new board and still having problems
Any suggestions to help me get the matter sorted once and for all?The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
Marc
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13-06-2008, 11:50 PM #37
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
Get a service checker on this unit as you will be able to rule out a lot of the suspected control problems in about five minutes - thermistor readings, expansion valve control, p1 / p2 wiring, faulty boards etc etc. I try and avoid calling Daikin, as you say you'll get different answers every call. I've found someone experienced who helps via email, muh less hassle... They will send a wiring diagram via email as well.
Last edited by frank; 15-06-2008 at 07:27 PM. Reason: ND44534
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15-06-2008, 07:29 PM #38
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15-06-2008, 09:26 PM #39
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
You can connect directly to the PCB using optional cable(s).
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16-06-2008, 08:45 PM #40
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
Marc you must be enjoying this one?!
I agree you can put a service checker on your split,.
Have you had the slave unit running with any of the boards?.
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16-06-2008, 08:51 PM #41
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
Just been looking at this post. Since i posted last time Daikin sent out a new indoor board but it was the wrong one. Then they sent out the right board but i have been busy all week in london so they sent another guy to fit it but when he got there to fit it, the controller started flashing up a fault code. When he rang daikin they told him that another part should have been sent that clips onto the board but it wasn't in the box...... It's becoming a joke.
So now we have to wait until this connector is sent for plugging onto the board, then we will have another goThe difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
Marc
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16-06-2008, 08:55 PM #42
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
I dont have a service checker but i agree it would be useful. How would i try and get one of these? Can they be bought from diakin?
I haven't had the slave unit running when the boards have been swapped but i have had the slave unit running when i swapped the controller over from the master onto the slave.The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
Marc
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16-06-2008, 09:08 PM #43
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
The part that Daikin did not send is a little resister to tell the new pcb the size of unit it is fitted to,
Could there be a wrong setting used that is causing the issue with your slave?,. I think it would really help if we treated it like a new install and started at the beginning.Have you seen or got the wiring diagram for the system?,.
Im sure we will get there in the end,,.
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16-06-2008, 09:32 PM #44
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
There are the usual wiring diagrams on the back of the electric covers on both indoor and outdoor units. I haven't seen an operational manual for it though. I'll probably be going back there on wednesday when the "resister" arrives
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
Marc
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17-06-2008, 05:49 PM #45
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
Just an update on this, i have thrown in the towel and admitted defeat.
Went today to fit the new board, fitted it and turned the controller on, which did clear the fault but the slave fan still didn't come on.
Checked the settings on the controller and set 21 to 0-02 meaning that it's a twin. Turned power on and master fan ran but the slave didnt, also the compressor didn't come on or the condensor fan.
Checked power to the indoor board and the power comes in on x27a then goes through x25a (which is the lift pump) then comes back out onto x20a (the indoor fan) checked for power and there was poer at x20a but the fan wasnt running.
Swapped the fan motors over but still the slave fan wouldn't come on. I then disconnected the controller from the master and wired it into the slave and turned it on and the indoor fan started, which proved the motor is ok. I also disconnected the external pumps that had been wired into the unit instead of into a fused spare but that made no difference either.
I spoke to daikin and to be fair they tried everything but were stumped, they kept taking me through all the settings on the controller to be sure the system was recognising 2 indoors- which it was but still the indoor fan won't come on when wired as a master and slave with 1 controller. Also the compressor didn't start once in all this time that i had it on.The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
Marc
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17-06-2008, 09:39 PM #46
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
Can you explain what you mean by this?
On a twin split, the 3 core + E connects from the outdoor unit to the first indoor unit and then to the second indoor unit.
The controller, P1 P2 connects to one (any) indoor unit only. Comms between the indoor units is carried out via interconnect 3 (on R410A systems). There is no Master/Slave configurations to do.
Have you checked out the interconnect wiring for crossed wires?
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17-06-2008, 09:57 PM #47
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
When you go into the settings on the controller it eaithe says 0-01 or 0-02 meaning its either a split or a twin. This had the setting of 0-02 meaning the controller recognised that the sytem was a twin.
Yes that's right, to the master first then through to the slave unit. The controller is wired into P1 P2 in the master unit.
They should configure themselves manually i was told when the power supply is turned off the turned back on. When i first went to it today and changed the board the setting on the controller on setting "21" was 0-01 meaning it was set up as a split not a twin.
Checked for crossed wiring and for any breaks in the cable.The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
Marc
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18-06-2008, 09:10 PM #48
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
There is no such thing as defeat!!!, Have you tried using a controller on each unit or just a different controller?,
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19-06-2008, 06:36 AM #49
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19-06-2008, 11:16 AM #50
Re: fault on a daikin Roundflow
Can you wire each unit as a single split and test run, will this help pinpoint your problem(s)?
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