Building a refrigerated warehouse

[gaz]

Hi Guys,

I am new here and would appreciate any feedback.

Firstly I must say that I know nothing about engineering/refrigeration as I run a business and am looking at building a new refrigerated warehouse for my business.

Right now I have a consultant who has been servicing my old warehouses running on *****.

OBviously that's what he knows best.

Another friend who is running on ammonia is telling me ammonia is the way to go.

So I am confused in the midst of all these advice.

What direction should i take?

And what are the steps or procedure I should take that are typical of building a refrigerated warehouse?

Thanks in advance.

[Josip]

Hi, Gaz

Welcome to RE forums.

Hi Guys,

I am new here and would appreciate any feedback.

Firstly I must say that I know nothing about engineering/refrigeration as I run a business and am looking at building a new refrigerated warehouse for my business.

Right now I have a consultant who has been servicing my old warehouses running on *****.

OBviously that's what he knows best.

Another friend who is running on ammonia is telling me ammonia is the way to go.

So I am confused in the midst of all these advice.

What direction should i take?

And what are the steps or procedure I should take that are typical of building a refrigerated warehouse?

Thanks in advance.

Both ideas are good (I am ammonia guy and I will support ammonia), but....

To give you some good advice you must give us full info about your refrigerated warehouse - cold store:

-goods (one or more/mixed or not, etc...)
-cooling temperature -from X (C/F) to X (C/F)
-quantity of goods
-just cooling or some other activities like sorting, packing , etc...
-your idea about cold store..seems you want multipurpose cold store

Some other guys will come maybe with additional questions, but that's the only way for help..

Best regards, Josip

[gaz]

Hi, Gaz

-goods (one or more/mixed or not, etc...)
-cooling temperature -from X (C/F) to X (C/F)
-quantity of goods
-just cooling or some other activities like sorting, packing , etc...
-your idea about cold store..seems you want multipurpose cold store

Some other guys will come maybe with additional questions, but that's the only way for help..

Best regards, Josip

Hi Josip,

Thanks for the prompt reply.

-goods (one or more/mixed or not, etc...)

300 sku varying from meat, dairy produce, to dry goods

-cooling temperature -from X (C/F) to X (C/F)

1) -18 to -20 degrees celcius (freezer)
2) 1-4/5 degrees celcius (chiller)
3) dry warehouse - normal room temperature


-quantity of goods

1) freezer - 1500 MT - 2000 MT capacity
2) chiller - 200 MT capacity

-just cooling or some other activities like sorting, packing , etc...

Need pick face and after pick area - Seems like this is the hardest to estimate how much space needed.

There will be a production room but that's a separate matter.

-your idea about cold store..seems you want multipurpose cold store

Yes multipurpose as I import a range of food products.

Anything else, please ask thanks.

[Josip]

Hi, Gaz

300 sku varying from meat, dairy produce, to dry goods


1) -18 to -20 degrees celcius (freezer)
2) 1-4/5 degrees celcius (chiller)
3) dry warehouse - normal room temperature


1) freezer - 1500 MT - 2000 MT capacity
2) chiller - 200 MT capacity


Need pick face and after pick area - Seems like this is the hardest to estimate how much space needed.

There will be a production room but that's a separate matter.

Yes multipurpose as I import a range of food products.

Nice project

In freezer are you going to keep ice cream? Anyhow here you must use direct cooling system.

For chiller and A/C area is better to use indirect system with enough capacity for production area/room later on. Did you think about FIFO system for dairy products -chiller room/s and for A/C too?

What about capacity for A/C room (chocolate, sugar, salt, rice, flour, candy -wafers, caned goods) ?

4 big rooms (freezer room, diary-meat chiller room, A/C room) or maybe couple of smaller rooms

Handling (receiving/delivery) area can be quite specific (unloading/loading ramps for big or small trucks, fast doors, number of fork lifts, etc.. ) but you know daily traffic in tons, or number of daily trucks in/out...anyhow must be discussed well.

See this also, quite a lot to read:

http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2188&highlight
http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2070&highlight
http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7858&highlight
http://www.refrigeration-engineer.co...7757&highlight

Recently we design and install one similar ammonia/glycol cold store in KSA (±20000 m³) but each new project is a new challenge.

Hope this is of some help to you

Best regards, Josip

[gaz]

Josip,

Thanks for the great links.

By the way, 1 very important question - I just realised my warehouse frontage will be facing west, which means the loading/unloading dock will be facing the afternoon sun.

Of course it is not ideal, but will it be a barrier or huge disadvantage?

[gaz]

Josip,

Thanks for the great links.

By the way, 1 very important question - I just realised my warehouse frontage will be facing west, which means the loading/unloading dock will be facing the afternoon sun.

Of course it is not ideal, but will it be a barrier or huge disadvantage?

Any advice guys on above?

Secondly, is there any template or calculator available to calculate storage cost per pallet or per mt?

With that, then comparison between public warehouse and self own becomes easier.

Thanks.

[lana]

By the way, 1 very important question - I just realised my warehouse frontage will be facing west, which means the loading/unloading dock will be facing the afternoon sun.

Of course it is not ideal, but will it be a barrier or huge disadvantage?

This will add to the cooling load requirements and not a big deal. If the insulation is of good quality and installed properly then no problem.

Secondly, is there any template or calculator available to calculate storage cost per pallet or per mt?

NO. that 's the consultant's job to estimate the total cost after design.

Good luck
LANA

[gaz]

In freezer are you going to keep ice cream? Anyhow here you must use direct cooling system.

For chiller and A/C area is better to use indirect system with enough capacity for production area/room later on. Did you think about FIFO system for dairy products -chiller room/s and for A/C too?

What about capacity for A/C room (chocolate, sugar, salt, rice, flour, candy -wafers, caned goods) ?

4 big rooms (freezer room, diary-meat chiller room, A/C room) or maybe couple of smaller rooms

Handling (receiving/delivery) area can be quite specific (unloading/loading ramps for big or small trucks, fast doors, number of fork lifts, etc.. ) but you know daily traffic in tons, or number of daily trucks in/out...anyhow must be discussed well.

Josip,

No ice-cream. Mostly meat and other frozen food stuffs.

What is direct/indirect cooling system? and benefits/drawbacks?

In food we always try to practice FIFO. But I think what you are saying is incorporating it into the design, is it? Anywhere I can find more details?

Right now looking at 2 or 3 freezers and 1 chiller.

Question - where should I put the loose goods, or products that are picked and less than full carton? Should I have a small room to allocate this or just have a after pick area in the big freezer?

Right now, I am also torn between 2 designs.

1) unloading/loading bay does not have refrigeration. upon unloading, truck will move straight into ante/chiller and then freezer.

2) unloading/loading bay act as both ante and chiller where trucks part right to the door. And from there, into the freezer from ante/chiller.

Obviously, I am looking from cost perspective but my technical knowledge or experience is not good enough for me to assess cost/long term benefits ratio properly. I would not want to cut any cost that will bring more drawbacks in future.

Thanks.

[Josip]

Hi, Gaz

Josip,

No ice-cream. Mostly meat and other frozen food stuffs.

What is direct/indirect cooling system? and benefits/drawbacks?

In food we always try to practice FIFO. But I think what you are saying is incorporating it into the design, is it? Anywhere I can find more details?

Right now looking at 2 or 3 freezers and 1 chiller.

Question - where should I put the loose goods, or products that are picked and less than full carton? Should I have a small room to allocate this or just have a after pick area in the big freezer?

Right now, I am also torn between 2 designs.

1) unloading/loading bay does not have refrigeration. upon unloading, truck will move straight into ante/chiller and then freezer.

2) unloading/loading bay act as both ante and chiller where trucks part right to the door. And from there, into the freezer from ante/chiller.

Obviously, I am looking from cost perspective but my technical knowledge or experience is not good enough for me to assess cost/long term benefits ratio properly. I would not want to cut any cost that will bring more drawbacks in future.

Thanks.

Where to start

-direct cooling is when you use refrigerant in your evaporators within cold room - this is "must" for low temperature rooms below -18C

- indirect cooling is when you use primary refrigerant ammonia/***** to cool down glycol (we call that primary refrigeration circuit) and then you pump cooled glycol through your room coolers to cool your goods - applicable for your chillers and for A/C rooms.

Benefits of indirect cooling are: less refrigerant in primary circuit, less valves, connections i.e. less places for possible leaks, more safe.

Drawbacks: little bit higher installation and running costs due to double cooling circuits.

Of course, you are going to build a new cold store why not incorporate this in design

About FIFO racks and systems you can use Google just write FIFO and enjoy

Another question: what about control of goods: in, out, on stock, to order due to minimum on stock etc....(with barcode reader/writer)?

Loose goods, maybe you can use one separate area in one room for all, but due to hygienic reasons maybe is better to use a separate room this is a must in meat industry for "problematic/suspicious" quality meat.

Right now, I am also torn between 2 designs.

1) unloading/loading bay does not have refrigeration. upon unloading, truck will move straight into ante/chiller and then freezer.

2) unloading/loading bay act as both ante and chiller where trucks part right to the door. And from there, into the freezer from ante/chiller.

Why torn you need only one and good solution (ok maybe I do not understand this, can you post some architectural scheme of your cold store)

You are living in hot and humid area...your truck bay and manipulation area must be of special design to reduce penetration of hot and humid air and increasing your refrigeration load

and here is your answer:

Obviously, I am looking from cost perspective but my technical knowledge or experience is not good enough for me to assess cost/long term benefits ratio properly. I would not want to cut any cost that will bring more drawbacks in future.

Best regards, Josip

[Peter_1]

1) -18 to -20 degrees celcius (freezer)
2) 1-4/5 degrees celcius (chiller)
3) dry warehouse - normal room temperature

1) freezer - 1500 MT - 2000 MT capacity
2) chiller - 200 MT capacity

-just cooling or some other activities like sorting, packing , etc...

What size do you have in mind?
What's 1500 MT and 2000 MT capacity?
What is 300 sku?

Whatever you want to build, insist that a system is installed with an as low as possible condensing temperature.
Can you use warm/hot water in your business?
What's the average temperature in winter and summer in your country?

[lana]

Hi everybody,

I think the question gaz asked is common everywhere.
Yesterday I had a client who asked exactly the same question.
I, as Josip said, am a "*****" guy so I should support that , but if we want to be fair and keep our professional ethic then we must explain the differences, advantages and disadvantages of each system, then let the client decide.

By "*****" system I mean Direct expansion with "*****".

Here is what I suggest.

1- Initial cost of '*****' and ammonia system is different. For small capacity the initial cost of "*****" is much less than ammonia. But for very large capacities the initial cost of "*****" would be higher. The reason is simple, the number of units that should be installed to give that capacity will be too much and therefore, the cost of everything escalates. Like installation cost and equipment.

I can not give any specific capacity that over that the ammonia system must be considered.

2- Running cost. Again the above discussion is valid. Above a certain capacity, the running cost of the "*****" system will be higher than ammonia, and vis versa.

3- Maintenance and service. For ammonia system there is one engine room with all the equipment there, but for high capacity "*****" systems there will be many engine rooms or set of equipment (in technical terms circuits). So the maintenance of several systems is more time consuming and costly than one.
On the other hand ammonia system has lots of valves which will require maintenance and service.

Other thing is the availability of the required specialists for each system.

4- Ammonia is poisonous and flammable. This part is always puzzled me . If the products are not packaged then in the event of ammonia leak, the products can not be used anymore. This happens many years ago in the Zürich slaughter house and they had to burn all the meats. Also we had ammonia leak in a Kiwi fruit cold store and ....a lot of damage.

For big capacities, I always suggest that :
pay a small fee for both systems initial design (not so in detail) so that the consultants can estimate the initial and running cost for you.
This will be the basis of your decision.

I would appreciate any expert comments on this.

Thanks
LANA

[Josip]

3- Maintenance and service. For ammonia system there is one engine room with all the equipment there, but for high capacity "*****" systems there will be many engine rooms or set of equipment (in technical terms circuits). So the maintenance of several systems is more time consuming and costly than one.
On the other hand ammonia system has lots of valves which will require maintenance and service.

Other thing is the availability of the required specialists for each system.

4- Ammonia is poisonous and flammable. This part is always puzzled me . If the products are not packaged then in the event of ammonia leak, the products can not be used anymore. This happens many years ago in the Zürich slaughter house and they had to burn all the meats. Also we had ammonia leak in a Kiwi fruit cold store and ....a lot of damage.

Thanks
LANA

Just two comments

-why you need many engine rooms for ***** installation

-there is NO SAFE refrigerant!!!

Best regards, Josip

[gaz]

Hi everybody,

By "*****" system I mean Direct expansion with "*****".

Here is what I suggest.

1- Initial cost of '*****' and ammonia system is different. For small capacity the initial cost of "*****" is much less than ammonia. But for very large capacities the initial cost of "*****" would be higher. The reason is simple, the number of units that should be installed to give that capacity will be too much and therefore, the cost of everything escalates. Like installation cost and equipment.

I can not give any specific capacity that over that the ammonia system must be considered.

2- Running cost. Again the above discussion is valid. Above a certain capacity, the running cost of the "*****" system will be higher than ammonia, and vis versa.

3- Maintenance and service. For ammonia system there is one engine room with all the equipment there, but for high capacity "*****" systems there will be many engine rooms or set of equipment (in technical terms circuits). So the maintenance of several systems is more time consuming and costly than one.
On the other hand ammonia system has lots of valves which will require maintenance and service.

Other thing is the availability of the required specialists for each system.

4- Ammonia is poisonous and flammable. This part is always puzzled me . If the products are not packaged then in the event of ammonia leak, the products can not be used anymore. This happens many years ago in the Zürich slaughter house and they had to burn all the meats. Also we had ammonia leak in a Kiwi fruit cold store and ....a lot of damage.


Thanks
LANA

Lana, thanks for your insight.

Looking at the above pointers, basically what you are saying are:

1) ammonia has cheaper 1 time implementation cost (subject to certain sizes which i think I fall under anyway)

2) ammonia has a cheaper maintenance cost (unless not many specialist around that region)

3) what we know is ammonia is more efficient and consumes less energy and will save cost over long term

In summary, the only reason why people choose ***** or avoid Ammonia is because of the potential conseqeunces from a leakage?

[Josip]

Hi, Peter_1

What size do you have in mind?
What's 1500 MT and 2000 MT capacity?
What is 300 sku?

Whatever you want to build, insist that a system is installed with an as low as possible condensing temperature.
Can you use warm/hot water in your business?
What's the average temperature in winter and summer in your country?

Metric ton = 1000 kg = http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=re...vWkKkSPOS_08JA


SKU = http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=re...ibiKlZtb4qj5YA

Not an item important for us Peter

Best regards, Josip

[gaz]

What size do you have in mind?
What's 1500 MT and 2000 MT capacity?
What is 300 sku?

Whatever you want to build, insist that a system is installed with an as low as possible condensing temperature.
Can you use warm/hot water in your business?
What's the average temperature in winter and summer in your country?

Hi Peter,

I think Josip was kind enough to explain the first 2.

Why build a lowest possible condensing temperature? What's the advantage? And of course disadvantage? And from cost point of view - sounds higher, right?

I do not see why warm/hot water is prohibited. To explain more clearly, my company imports and distribute food products of all varieties. Sort of like Sysco but obviously no where near their figures. Pure distribution with some value added services such as portion control etc.

Peter, I am from Malaysia and only 1 weather that is HOT and HUMID. We're looking at 30 and above degrees celcius all year round.

Thanks and look forward to your advice

[acvr]

I hope someone answer to at least parts of it, I am going to write and try to make the perfect warehouse for my reference and everybody that what’s to make one or use it like a thesis (that is another thing I am doing, killing to birds at the same time J)
I appreciate when the question are answer to put the number so nobody gets lost

1) In my country there’s a huge need of cold especially for food, so I don’t know which area it’s more profit to refrigerate from food and which one has more demand. Knowing this we could know more about the size of the warehouse and its freezers. At these moments we are thinking about 3 freezers of 1500 mt2 and 1 cooling tunnel.
(It could be more or less depending of the research).

2) Why is the ammoniac more dangerous than the *****? I heard that both are toxic? Is it more dangerous because the ammoniac leaks?
Both are toxics the difference its that ammoniac leaks

3) How does the ammoniac alarm or sensors work?
By the strong odor of the ammoniac when its leaking

4) Whats the difference between freezer and chiller?

5) Before connecting the truck to the dock would it help to put a portable refrigerator to cool it down? Why?
Yes, because it helps to avoid loosing cold = energy from the docks and avoid humidity to enter to the docks

6) What’s the difference between direct cooling systems and indirect?
Direct cooling is when you use refrigerant in your evaporators within cold room - this is "must" for low temperature rooms below -18C
Indirect cooling is when you use primary refrigerant ammonia/***** to cool down glycol (we call that primary refrigeration circuit) and then you pump cooled glycol through your room coolers to cool your goods - applicable for your chillers and for A/C rooms.
Benefits of indirect cooling are: less refrigerant in primary circuit, less valves, connections i.e. less places for possible leaks, more safe.
Bad of indirect: little bit higher installation and running costs due to double cooling circuits.
(This info right or something is missing)

7) What is FIFO?

8) What tempeture should be use outside the freezers but in the warehouse?
If you keep the docks at about 35°F (1.6°C) to 45°F (7.2°C) this will remove a large percentage of the moisture as a liquid on the coils in the dock area. These evaporators should be blowing air towards the dock doors.
(This info right or something is missing)

9) Why do we have to unfreeze some process and places?

10) It’s better to use hot gas o electricity to unfreeze?
Hot gas
(This info right or something is missing)

11) If the warehouse its build underground at least part of it would the energy cost would be cheaper?

12) There are 3 kind of freezer? Why? What about pharmaceutics?
One for vegetable, eggs, wood. One for meat, fish and chicken. One for fast food
(This info right or something is missing)

13) Why the doors have to be of rubber and go up and down and not to the sides? Why can’t it be a sliding door or a double door (like the submarines)?

14) Which doors got the best technology and which has the best price and good technology?

15) How the humidity does plays in this game? And what does it affects?

16) Which brands of stock picker truck or pallet truck are consider the best?

17) How much space between stand should leave so the pallet truck can turn around?

18) How could I optimize the space of the freezer, it’s there a free program or some calculus that could help me to put the stands?

19) Which stands are better? Which dimension fit all? Witch materials are good for it?
Dimension that fit all: 1x 1,30x 1,70

20) What’s the perfect height for the freezer?
2002 ASHRAE Refrigeration Handbook: 8.5 to 10.5 m
(This info right or something is missing)

21) How much space should I leave between the boxes (paletas) in the stand that are in the freezer?
a)5 cm floor to box, the space for the pallet truck to get the box and 5 cm to the roof
b)5 % of the total volume of the boxes
c)10cm between the lines of boxes, a 25cm gap from the walls and a 75cm gap between the ceiling panel
(This info right or something is missing)
22) Could I use the cold air of the refrigerate tunnel (when I finish using it) to cold something at the warehouse?

23) What is that about cleaning with ozone water? What for? And why this type of water?
Its for fruits or food that its not completely package to clean them up so they don’t get bad

24) Most of freezers have 100% air, why others need 98% of nitrogen or other component?

25) What’s a panel? How are they build? Which foam its better? How do you hang them from the roof? Why not make a structure from the floor to hold it? Why put on top of the floor panel concrete?
A panel its like a sandwich of 2 metal with a foam inside
26) How does it work freezing by gas at a lot of pressure? Why? Should be more expensive?

27) Does the cold affects to put a RDF system?

28) Is it true that you could say that 1 m2 needs 500 BTU approximate?

29) How much it’s a ton of cold?
30) If somebody has something to add I will appreciate
Thanks for helping in anything you can and helping other people with this question, I will keep in touch, to tell how the project its going, to ask knew things and to a port others things that mite help us all to be better engineers and business men’s and women.
I understand that all this its pretty easy for you guys, so I will be grateful if you could give me a link to read about each of this points

[Peter_1]

7. http://www.audioenglish.net/dictionary/fifo.htm
I've done my part

[icecube51]

29 = 3517Watt or 12500BTU

Ice

[acvr]

thanks peter and icecube

[BoilerBoy]

Meat - 28
produce - 50
ice cream - -20
freezer - -10
docks - 35
cooler - 35
Ammonia all the way. Well maybe 718......