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  1. #1
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    new r22 drop-in replacement



    I heard a talk last week. The speaker referred to a new drop-in replacement for r22.

    He said that it was a new mix of 3 gasses and that it could be topped up after a gas leak!

    Is this possible? Surely, the 3 components will boil at different rates.

    He then said that they have good results with DX but are having problems with flooded systems. A comment from the audience was that in the flooded system, the compressor pulls vapor from the accumulator and therefore will change the liquid concentration in the flooded evaporator.

    But this contradicts the first claim?



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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    That sounds like someone got their facts crossed up. If the gas won't work in a flooded chiller, then it has a glide temperature to it and it's fractionating in the chiller.

    Unless, the problem has to do with oil return. In that case there may be other factors besides the actual refrigerant.
    If all else fails, ask for help.


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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by US Iceman View Post
    Unless, the problem has to do with oil return. In that case there may be other factors besides the actual refrigerant.
    Would the oil not be fully mixed in the liquid?

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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Yes the oil will concentrate in the liquid as an oil rich layer.

    The problem is (at least based on what I have seen) the actual location of the oil layer tends to move depending on the evaporating pressure and actual miscibility of the oil.

    So, you need to know an approximate location of this layer to add the required oil recovery devices.

    At least this is how it works on regular R-22. The new alternative refrigerants may work slightly different.
    If all else fails, ask for help.


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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by US Iceman View Post
    Yes the oil will concentrate in the liquid as an oil rich layer.
    OK, I wasn't aware of that. I had the impression that the miscibility of oil in liquid was very high. I suppose that this is the reason that oil sometimes ends up in the evaporator.

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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Dupont have a range of drop-ins, for R22 they are using:-

    Isceon 29 - R422D for chillers and LT equipment

    and

    Isceon 59 - R417a for DX air conditioning

    Their site contains various papers on different application, don't know whether this helps or hinders but have a look anyway.

    http://refrigerants.dupont.com/Suva/...cts/index.html
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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian_UK View Post
    Dupont have a range of drop-ins, for R22. Their site contains various papers on different application, don't know whether this helps or hinders but have a look anyway.
    I see that Dupont have made significant updates to their data since I last looked.

    The DuPont ISCEON 9 Series Refrigerants looks very interesting. Drop in replacements for R22 that can be topped-up.

    This one cought my eye, because I have a broken R12 system in my car and I thought it was a lost cause.

    Now there is a simple drop in replacement for R12 with no oil problems.

    From Dupont
    ISCEONŽ MO49 is an easy-to-use, non-ozone-depleting HFC retrofit refrigerant for R-12 in automotive, air conditioning and for R-12 and HCFC-containing refrigerant blends (e.g., MP39, MP66, and R-409A) in stationary air conditioning (AC) and in direct expansion, medium-temperature stationary refrigeration systems. ASHRAE # R-413A

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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Yep, I've done quite a few changeover from 12 to 413a in cars and haven't had any problems.

    As someone else mentioned recently - remember that R12 a/c in cars is already 'old' kit so don't blame the gas if it's not working as it used.
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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    The problem is (at least based on what I have seen) the actual location of the oil layer tends to move depending on the evaporating pressure and actual miscibility of the oil.

    So, you need to know an approximate location of this layer to add the required oil recovery devices.
    Why would this matter?
    Don't most systems take the oil out before the gas condenses, so there would be no liquid to 'sit' on.(?)

    Chillin
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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    the old saying comes to mind: Nothing is perfect.

    Even with a high efficiency oil sep some will all ways squeek through.

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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Hey Chillin,

    In a flooded chiller or any other vessel that holds liquid refrigerant the oil will accumulate in a certain way.

    I have seen high pressure receivers used for cool gas defrost (R-22) which accumulated oil.

    In the flooded chiller the oil will float on top of the R-22 liquid. At no load the oil forms a nice thick layer. Under severe load, the liquid and refrigerant are both foaming.

    Because of this you need to know how the oil and refrigerant will react (and where it is at) so that you can decide where to put the oil recovery ports.
    If all else fails, ask for help.


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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by US Iceman View Post
    ,
    I have seen high pressure receivers used for cool gas defrost (R-22) which accumulated oil..
    Iceman;
    I am not familiar with the term "Cool Gas Defrost" Can you enlighten me as to its meaning?

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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Instead of hot gas from the discharge line, cool gas was vapor pulled off of the high pressure receiver for defrosting the coils. As the receiver pressure decreases some of the liquid flashes off, hence the name cool gas.

    The supermarket guys used to use this a lot. We used it on some experimental systems under testing.
    If all else fails, ask for help.


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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Ah, right.. got you now.

    So even when you have the best of the best oil seps and some gets through, it will never come back again unless you could somehow drain it from the vessel and at the correct height.

    What happens when it goes low on liquid/gas?

    Chillin
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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by chillin out
    What happens when it goes low on liquid/gas?
    If all of the refrigerant escapes the system, most of the oil is left behind. This is how I found it on one system. We removed the R-22 from the system and had planned on doing some work to the receiver.

    When we tried to move the receiver it weighed a LOT more than it should have. It turned out the vessel was half full of oil...which everyone said could not happen.

    But, when faced with a receiver half full of oil I would say that is sufficient evidence that the best laid plans of mice and men do not always work the way we think they will.
    If all else fails, ask for help.


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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Yes but what happens when the system is running and it goes a bit short?

    Normal

    System short

    The system would still run but you would shut down from lack of oil return.(?)

    Chillin
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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by chillin out View Post
    Yes but what happens when the system is running and it goes a bit short?
    The system would still run but you would shut down from lack of oil return.(?)Chillin
    Yes, it will lose oil return. But it is no different from a DX system which will not return oil when low on charge.
    If the level is controlled by a float or its electronic equivalent, maintaining a adequate liquid level in the receiver is adequate to keep this from happening.
    I have ran R-22 flooded systems with no oil return. In one case the evap was for a spiral freezer. The screw pumped very little oil. Once a month we simply shut off the liquid and pumped it dry. We drained the oil from the drop leg and all was well. This would not be so quickly done in a cold storage that you could not warm up on a regular basis.
    This would probably be looked on in disfavor today, as it wasted energy.
    Flooded R-22 systems seem to handle oil well, perhaps because the oil floats on the top of the liquid in the vessel. This would not be the case for a refrigerant similar to R-12, where the oil mixes well with the refrigerant.

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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    regarding what brian_uk said is that true that r417a is designed for ac systems.as we were made to use this on a r22 retrofit for a customers dual temp packs.

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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by fowlie View Post
    regarding what brian_uk said is that true that r417a is designed for ac systems.as we were made to use this on a r22 retrofit for a customers dual temp packs.
    The DuPont range has three options for "drop-in" replacement of R-22; it depends really on what your priority is. Isceon 59 will give good efficiency (CoP) but slightly less capacity and at slightly higher pressures than R-22, so if you have an oversized plant it is a good way to go - lower energy bills. Isceon 29 has less glide than 59 and runs at lower pressure - it is said to be particularly suitable for DX water chillers. Isceon 79 is again lower pressure than 59 (more like R-22) and said to be particularly suitable for low temperature. In fact I have seen each of them in all three applications, so R-417A (ie Isceon 59) in a dual temp pack is OK provided you have enough cooling capacity. The effect of a slight reduction in capacity means slightly longer running hours but because the CoP is better the total kWh used in a day is less than it would have been on R-22 so the electric bill is lower

    cheers

    Andy P

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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Andy P.

    I notice you have had some experience with Isceon 59.

    I am currently looking into replacing R22 throughout the UK.

    I have read DuPont’s case studies of retrofitting R22 and found them interesting.

    The IT company I am in contact with likes the idea of saving energy through the use of 59 (and preparing themselves for the inevitable shortage of recovered 22) so I am eager to talk with people who have case studies themselves.

    I would like to know, if possible, whether there have been any adverse reactions to the retrofit 22-59 (taking into consideration old seals, expansion valve replacement and adding a small quantity of poly oil where necessary)

    BTW hello Brian_uk, thanks for the uplifting email attachments. it would be good to see you before Christmas, but the way work is right now....

    kind regards

    Martin

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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Hi Martin, glad to see that you've got over your shyness and joined us

    Are there going to be any potential problems with the retrofit considering the age/state of some of the equipment do you think?
    Brian - Newton Abbot, Devon, UK
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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Hello Brian

    Your right, it was about time I commented on something

    The customer has over 3700 units of varying size. 80% of the units are R22.

    We are currently updating the original, poorly put together asset list, which we are relying on to identify units that require replacement as opposed to retrofit.

    I have visited a chiller in Gloucester running on 29, but have not seen 59 at work, I am going to give BOC and IDS Bristol a call again.

    Once a few people within the organisation are confident the gas isn’t going to damage the kit, we would start to retrofit units that require compressor changes and entering the system, then employ a team dedicated to retrofitting the other units.

    I’ll leave you to work out the Math:

    80% of 3700
    27 full time engineers
    limited amount of time remaining
    = meltdown.

    Regards

    Martin

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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatboymart View Post
    I’ll leave you to work out the Math:

    80% of 3700
    27 full time engineers
    limited amount of time remaining
    = meltdown.
    Should be done by the new year then
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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Laptop off. Mobile left in car. i'm on holidays, nothing to loose sleep over for two weeks. oh yer I forgot, the baby's teething...wish I was back in work

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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatboymart View Post
    Laptop off. Mobile left in car. i'm on holidays, nothing to loose sleep over for two weeks. oh yer I forgot, the baby's teething...wish I was back in work
    Whinge, whinge, whinge, that's all we ever hear You'll be complaining because the Welsh lost at some sport or other next

    Enjoy your break and stock up no the Bonjela
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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Fatboymart.
    Welcome I suppose if your that fed up? Your colleague on standbye would welcome some help!
    Grizzly
    ps the fact that you can spell Bonjela tells us a lot Brian!

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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Drat, been caught out again by the spelling police

    Martin and I have rubbed shoulders in the recent past and I don't believe that he is dropping anyone in it regarding standby duties.

    But, is he fed up ? well I wouldn't like to say
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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Standby-at least i would get paid, my wife expects me to do this for nothing

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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Martin,
    Don't think you'll be disappointed using either 59 or 29 to replace R22. Boy if you've got 3700 to do, when will you sleep?
    Cheers
    Pete

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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Brian’s right (usually always is from my recollection) this time around I don’t have any direct links with the service team. I’m responsible for Fgas administration and to project manage a number of Data centres, plus energy reduction strategy.

    Thanks Peter for your reassurance, I am also a believer in this refrigerant, my objective is to convince those I work with that we are making the correct assumptions that long term wont render any of the clients kit useless

    I believe we have an appointment with BOC in the new year.

    Now back to the nappies

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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Just noticed the new avatar Martin, is that Ferrari that I see ?
    Brian - Newton Abbot, Devon, UK
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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    After months of tuff negotiation, I was able to convince fleet that a Ferrari would best suit our needs. I nearly didn’t succeed as “our man up north” was pushing for a Aston Martin.

    After a lot of hot air (sorry, talking) fleet decided they knew better and ordered transits.

    We are now loosing engineers as other companies are providing Ferraris


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    Thumbs up Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Hi fatboy.
    Would that be Coup'e or Estate version and were do I sign up.
    I would think with the amount of work you are talking about, you could choose your own vehicle.
    based on the pending consultancy work with BOC?
    Seriously though it's nice to here companies are starting to wise up re the R22 phase out. And perhaps there's more work for all of us?
    Things have been a bit slow in the South West lately.
    Grizzly

  34. #34
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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    R-407a is also a great replacment for R-22 in Medium and Low temp applications. I have several grocery store chains currently using it with great success. Capacity and efficency have not been a issue even at the high ambient days!

  35. #35
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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Check out another new R-22 repalcment called R-407a. Several large grocery store chains are using it with great success, even this summer at very high ambient temps it performed perfectly. go to ineosfluor.com

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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Thanks Skoerp

    I've just had a look via google to see the chemicals used within 407a.

    I will spend some time in the week reserching 407a, again case studies are what I need.

    Grizzly, if you ask nicely i'm sure Brian_uk can post the funny company van gif he sent me a few years back

  37. #37
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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    407a is expensive though.

    The ISCEON 9 series is pretty good according to my experience and IDS Refrigeration (used to be ISCEON Distribution services who developed these products with Rhodia and Star Refrigeration) appear to have a number of useful case studies in their download section (you have to register first of course).

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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Thanks Dave

    We are currently monitoring a number of systems that have Isceon 29 & 59. Ranging from DX through to chillers. The experience so far has been good.

    I attended a seminar held at Bristol a few month back, IDS & DuPont both made a good case for change.

    Regards

    Martin

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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    My company has been using Isceon 29 in all the chillers we can convince people to change ( seems they are slow to cotton on to the fact that in a few years there may well be no more R22 available and no engineers to come and retrofit the gas for them, at least not 'tommorrow' when they want it done!). Apart from a few problems with component sizes (Isceon aparantly has a higher 'mass flow rate'). We up-size the TEV orifice and in some cases have up sized driers, Sol. valves etc. Otherwise it is very straight forward to change to this gas. Some say its a bit pricey though? But then are all the newer gases?
    Steve

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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Hi Steve,

    Did some of the systems also reciprocating compressors?
    After a longer period working, did you not have problems with seals of the appendages?

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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveCass View Post
    My company has been using Isceon 29 in all the chillers we can convince people to change ( seems they are slow to cotton on to the fact that in a few years there may well be no more R22 available and no engineers to come and retrofit the gas for them, at least not 'tommorrow' when they want it done!). Apart from a few problems with component sizes (Isceon aparantly has a higher 'mass flow rate'). We up-size the TEV orifice and in some cases have up sized driers, Sol. valves etc. Otherwise it is very straight forward to change to this gas. Some say its a bit pricey though? But then are all the newer gases?
    Steve
    Hi Steve

    Have you carried out any studies to see if your energy consumption has increased since retrofitting to 29?

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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Yes we have done some recips. We have not had any problems with gaskets etc, but when we do the retrofit work it is generally because the comp has gone down and when we de-gas we point out that in a few years the gas will not be available. We do up-size the TEV cage one size (therefore changing the gaskets\seals) and put a refurbishment kit into the LL sol valve, but any flanges etc we leave alone and have not had any probs from them.

    As for energy consumption, no ,we have not done a good before and after study, although I am trying to get one done in the near future. Isceon do claim a 5% gain in efficiency though.

    Steve
    Last edited by SteveCass; 10-09-2008 at 06:27 PM.

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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by US Iceman View Post
    If all of the refrigerant escapes the system, most of the oil is left behind. This is how I found it on one system. We removed the R-22 from the system and had planned on doing some work to the receiver.

    When we tried to move the receiver it weighed a LOT more than it should have. It turned out the vessel was half full of oil...which everyone said could not happen.

    But, when faced with a receiver half full of oil I would say that is sufficient evidence that the best laid plans of mice and men do not always work the way we think they will.
    Hi Iceman,
    Is a thing like that that teaches us a lot!!
    This is kind field experience that nobody can discuss about. These are FACTS!!
    Although I have a question because am a bit confused: If (after stopping the system and evacuating the entire refrigerant out the system) you find the receiver half full with oil, has the system not been running with more oil than refrigerant??
    The medium leaving the receiver is most of the time about 2 cm above the bottom of those tanks?

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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by NH3LVR View Post
    Yes, it will lose oil return. But it is no different from a DX system which will not return oil when low on charge.
    If the level is controlled by a float or its electronic equivalent, maintaining a adequate liquid level in the receiver is adequate to keep this from happening.
    I have ran R-22 flooded systems with no oil return. In one case the evap was for a spiral freezer. The screw pumped very little oil. Once a month we simply shut off the liquid and pumped it dry. We drained the oil from the drop leg and all was well. This would not be so quickly done in a cold storage that you could not warm up on a regular basis.
    This would probably be looked on in disfavor today, as it wasted energy.
    Flooded R-22 systems seem to handle oil well, perhaps because the oil floats on the top of the liquid in the vessel. This would not be the case for a refrigerant similar to R-12, where the oil mixes well with the refrigerant.

    Very clever done man!!!
    I have a similar problem with a verticals "spiral wound" evaporator. Sometime i'm compulsory to run it with to little refrigerant flow because over overload from the production process. I this takes to long, the oil stay's also in the evap.
    I wanted to do the same but the designer did not put a drain on the evap.
    So I had to wait or to ask the client to run on "normal" load again to have the evap topping over and so getting the oil back in the pumping drum.

  45. #45
    DR-HVAC's Avatar
    DR-HVAC Guest

    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    The information that I downloaded stated that R-422B was designed for direct expansion systems. Because of the large glide, it would create problems when used with flooded systems.

    Here's my question/recommendation. How about R-507? Although it was originally designed as a replacement for R-502, I have seen it used in DX systems in A/C systems up to 105°F condensing temperatures. Because it has a very low glide, it appears that it could be used in flooded systems as well.

    Any suggestions, comments????

  46. #46
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    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Hi! Guys,

    So much of gd discussion on Isceon 9 used for R22. Pardon me as I'm not technically trained but took on a job recently to handle R22 retrofits.

    We've recently used Isceon MO-29 to retrofit R22 vending machines and result (before&after) was quite satisfactory with good efficiency and lower Amphere. The compressor cap is juz 1/4 HP and no change of parts required. Customer are very excited if not adverse issue in the next 2 months, they will proceed to retrofit all existing 1500 units. Wow!

  47. #47
    ron1800's Avatar
    ron1800 Guest

    Re: new r22 drop-in replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by nh3simman View Post
    I heard a talk last week. The speaker referred to a new drop-in replacement for r22.

    He said that it was a new mix of 3 gasses and that it could be topped up after a gas leak!

    Is this possible? Surely, the 3 components will boil at different rates.

    He then said that they have good results with DX but are having problems with flooded systems. A comment from the audience was that in the flooded system, the compressor pulls vapor from the accumulator and therefore will change the liquid concentration in the flooded evaporator.

    But this contradicts the first claim?
    400 series blends used in refrigeration systems are constantly circulating and there is no priority leaking, poor service (vapor charging) has more impact than leaks on medium and low temp systems with high glide refrigerants. Systems that are pumped down and sit idle with either an all gas or all liquid leak can fractionate, but this is rare. in a flooded evaporator you are basically creating this scenario by drawing off vapor only from the surface of the liquid, what is in circulation is not the true blend and performance will suffer.
    you can top off high glide blends in systems as long as you charge with liquid.
    hope this helps

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