environmentally safe and more efficient?

[star882]

http://www.es-refrigerants.com/produ...ts/default.asp
Has anyone used these refrigerants before? They claim to be environmentally friendly and more efficient. However, it sounds too good to be true and no OEM is using it.
They appear to be mixtures since they are to be liquid charged.

[Brian_UK]

Being a hydrocarbon I would think that the 'home' user market is a bit limited.

[Pooh]

Looks a bit like either Isobutane or Propane looking at the data sheets.

Ian

[Brian_UK]

They'll be using lighter fluid soon

[Pooh]

Brian
as long as they do not start using whisky they can do what they want.

Ian

[The MG Pony]

It is a Iso-Butane / Propane mix, another type I've seen was a mix of R-134a and Propane. I have a nifty PDF on it

If interested I can email it to thoughs interested, unfortunately too big to put here

[star882]

Is it actually more efficient?

[The MG Pony]

Being propane has a lower head pressure it uses less power for a given amount. I'll have to do a comparison in a A/C.

[lana]

Hi everybody,

If these refrigerants contain Propane and ... aren't they flammable?
Cheers

[The MG Pony]

So what? All refrigerants are flammable when in a system due to oil any way? Are we so ragingly incompetent that we really need to worry? Only way it'll go up is if the building is on fire and frankly at that point it really is a moot issue any way, no?

[Josip]

Hi, The MG Pony

So what? All refrigerants are flammable when in a system due to oil any way? Are we so ragingly incompetent that we really need to worry? Only way it'll go up is if the building is on fire and frankly at that point it really is a moot issue any way, no?

When they are in system we do not have any problem .

If the building is on fire it is time to run away , but
with flammable refrigerants we have problem if there is a leak on system and with simple click on light switch/door bell we can have explosion.

Anyhow I support use of HC as refrigerants of course with proper equipment and all safety measures. Maybe with some restriction for home DIY maestros

Let's hear other members here.

Best regards, Josip

[Brian_UK]

I think the most that HCs are used in the UK is for domestic refrigerators.

[The MG Pony]

And Europe.

Josip, you are indeed correct hence why I ask, Are we so bad at building/ designing this most be a worry? and that even in such cases air flow and such ensures no flammability, you simply loose the charge, any thing short of a catastrophic failure of a joint or pipe will not form a combustible mixture of such a degree one would need to worry in a real world setting.

[lana]

So what? All refrigerants are flammable when in a system due to oil any way? Are we so ragingly incompetent that we really need to worry? Only way it'll go up is if the building is on fire and frankly at that point it really is a moot issue any way, no?

Dear The MG Pony,

I have contacted their representative and the first thing they asked me was :
What is the charge for your system and what is the application?
I asked : what do need this for?
Reply : We have to look at the chart and tell you if it is safe for your system. For some applications there is a charge limit which you can use according to the safety standards.
Best regards
LANA

[The MG Pony]

Yes I know and am aware of this, they limmit the charge to 150Kg or 150G pending the aplication. Yet again though it is over protection, if the system is well built and has a means of safely burning off the charge there is no reason for it, with well don electrical it all should be air tight and water tight any way being from a very wet climate it is only good sense. Again any thing is only as safe as the person using it.

[US Iceman]

Yet again though it is over protection, if the system is well built and has a means of safely burning off the charge there is no reason for it,

Unfortunately, it is not up to you to decide what is safe or sufficient. That's why we have safety codes. HC refrigeration systems are not much different than any other refrigeration system, except for the electrical (explosion-proof) requirements and oil return systems.

In some instances the air tight/water tight argument doesn't hold water if you will pardon the pun. It is up to the facilities insurance company to determine whether they can use the equivalent of NEMA-4 purged panels or if they have to use explosion proof panels. A very big difference.

From the presentation of your arguments it appears you are trying to justify doing something different than what the safety codes require.

Again any thing is only as safe as the person using it.

Or the person who designed the system.

[The MG Pony]

Exactly No by my arguments I am saying all work should exceed the codes requirements no matter the system, if one can do a job that exceeds the code with out making the price insurmountable then it should be don. I try to build every thing to handle heavy abuse and to be solid, far to many things now days are designed to be throw-en away, where I like to make things that can be repaired for the next 50++ years and be safe even in a fire (well as best one can any ways).