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  1. #1
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    how can we calculation industrial refrigeration



    congralulation to forum!
    I want to calculation the industry refrigeration system myseft, but I don't know where the calculation software to aply?



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    Re: how can we calculation industrial refrigeration

    What type of application is it for which you want a calculation software ? There are different application in Industrial Refrigeration and if you can be more specific, I think some one could help you.

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    Re: how can we calculation industrial refrigeration

    Hi, Iam Sanh

    Welcome to RE..

    Quote Originally Posted by lam sanh View Post
    congralulation to forum!
    I want to calculation the industry refrigeration system myseft, but I don't know where the calculation software to aply?
    Please can you tell us something more about your needs

    Best regards, Josip

    It's impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious...

    Don't ever underestimate the power of stupid people when they are in large groups.

    Please, don't teach me how to be stupid....
    No job is as important as to jeopardize the safety of you or those that you work with.

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    Brian_UK is offline Moderator I am starting to push the Mods: of RE Site Moderator : and general nice guy
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    Re: how can we calculation industrial refrigeration

    Welcome Iam Sanh to the forum.

    I do like your occupation description of "worker", covers all sins I believe.
    Brian - Newton Abbot, Devon, UK
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    Please support http://the100project.net/Home

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    Re: how can we calculation industrial refrigeration

    Hi Iam Sanh,

    There are many type of Software, I have Sabroe Techmaster Software. Email me your address, software content 190 MB. Dunno how to pass it on to you?

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    Re: how can we calculation industrial refrigeration

    Calculating an industriual system with only software without knowing how the systems works and will perform under different loads??

    Just find then also the proper software to install it all and we no longer need Refrigeration mechanics.

    The modern world, the world dictated by computers
    It's better to keep your mouth shut and give the impression that you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.

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    Re: how can we calculation industrial refrigeration

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter_1
    The modern world, the world dictated by computers
    I agree with you Peter. A lot of people want software to do the thinking for them, and do not want to spend the time to learn.

    Someone should write an industrial refrigeration program and sell it. After installing the program, just push a button and let a little screen show "now calculating". It doesn't do anything else...

    Someone would watch this for hours waiting for the answer!

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    Re: how can we calculation industrial refrigeration

    To use any software be it for Industrial refrigeration or Air Conditioning, one has to know the basics and what he is actually looking for. One cannot work on a software without having suffecient knowledge of the system. Software gives you an idea and to be precise, you have to use your own knowledge and experience. I feel in case of any problem the best thing to do is posta thread in RE. This is the best software one can have.

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    Re: how can we calculation industrial refrigeration

    Software is only a tool. Your brain is decisive
    I hear...I forget;I see...I remember;I do...I understand

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    Re: how can we calculation industrial refrigeration

    There are expensive process simulation programs thatcan be set up to simulate a refrigeration system, but you need some knowledge of the systems design to set up the system in the computer.

    You need to decide on a type system...DX or flooded
    Air cooled, water cooled, evaporative cooled
    single stage, two stage, economized, cascade
    Refrigerant
    subcooler/intercooler levels,
    and the list goes on.

    It has taken me 37 years in this industry to learn what I have learned and I'm still learning. I am reasonably computer savvy and have written some programs to help in my day to day life and I would not want to begin trying to write a system design program.

    Ken

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    Re: how can we calculation industrial refrigeration

    You are absolutely right TXiceman. I myslf have been in the field for more than 44 years now and even today I do a lot of technical study on refrigeration. You may say it has become a second nature to me. I have a lot of software, but then before using them I work on the requirement, design a system and then apply the same on the software. I am in the business of refrigeration engineering, specialising in low temperature application, fruit and vegetable storage, high ambient and severe condition air conditioning etc.

    Whenever I have a problem or are unable to find a solution, I refer it to RE and get all the knowledge from you people.

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    Re: how can we calculation industrial refrigeration

    Hi all,

    Interesting input.

    Just to summarize.

    Computers are "Dumb" calculators. We tell them what to do. The only advantage they have is : SPEED nothing more.

    Imagine that a physician has all the design and HVACR software there is. What can he/she do with them?
    ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

    In order to use a software one has to know a lot about the subject so he/she can interpret the results.

    Just throw some thoughts.
    Cheers
    Even Einstein Asked Questions

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    Re: how can we calculation industrial refrigeration

    Where I worked 3 years ago, they had an in-house written system design program that had data bases for chiller barrels,compressors, A/C and water cooled condensers. You could mix match components and it would perform a balance and part load performance.

    A young engineer that was working with my guidance brought me a balance to check before he proceeded with the pricing. From experience I questioned the results...did not look anything like I expected. I told him to go back and do a manual graphical of the condenser/compressor and chiller. Not a clue about how to do this "the old way". He learned how the process was supposed to work that afternoon. Hopefully he will not forget.

    After we got the graphical solution it was pretty easy to see what had happened with the computer selection. The programmed had missed some stops or limits on the program and he was letting it extrapolate beyond the data base to lower temperatures on the compressor and chiller. The program assumptions were not valid at those points. We added limits which should ahve been ther in the first place.

    This goes back to you need to know how t design a system before you can even attempt to let a computer program design it for you in the blind. There is a certain amount of fuzzy logic that you perform to to a design properly. Trying to define all of this to a computer will be quiet a chore. You can set up do do a design over a limited range but you need to know the limits.

    Ken

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    Re: how can we calculation industrial refrigeration

    Hi TXiceman,

    Exactly my point.

    In the university, we learned the graphical balancing first with all the necessary knowledge and then we transferred it to a computer programme.
    If human want to build a computer like its brain then imagine what would happen.

    We take our brain for granted but it is the best computer there is.

    Cheers
    Even Einstein Asked Questions

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    Re: how can we calculation industrial refrigeration

    Quote Originally Posted by lana
    If human want to build a computer like its brain then imagine what would happen.
    Now that would be quite a task. We don't fully understand how our brains work so building a computer to do this would only imply an incomplete ability to process information based on our concept of what reality is at the moment.

    I am continually amazed at the perceived need for software programs and the people who will line up to obtain them.

    The best way to understand is the old manual method.
    If all else fails, ask for help.


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    Re: how can we calculation industrial refrigeration

    I finally got a chance to pull out a graphical balance I did for an air cooled condenser, recip compressor and a DX evaporator. The scanned balance is attached. It is not pretty but it works.

    Ken

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    Re: how can we calculation industrial refrigeration

    Hi, TXiceman

    Quote Originally Posted by TXiceman View Post
    I finally got a chance to pull out a graphical balance I did for an air cooled condenser, recip compressor and a DX evaporator. The scanned balance is attached. It is not pretty but it works.

    Ken
    Maybe it works, but seems it is not attached

    Best regards, Josip

    It's impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious...

    Don't ever underestimate the power of stupid people when they are in large groups.

    Please, don't teach me how to be stupid....
    No job is as important as to jeopardize the safety of you or those that you work with.

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    Re: how can we calculation industrial refrigeration

    I see that it was not attached as it as too big...only 400kB and they have a 100kB limit. I've asked US Iceman to help here.

    Ken

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    Re: how can we calculation industrial refrigeration

    Yes! I totally agree with Peret_1, US Iceman & Samarjit for your views. The modern world has created a lazy lot of peoples who are addicted to software. They think every thing the software gives is correct. There is a good saying “The computer is the most efficient idiot”. If you do not have the refrigeration knowledge & physics you can not feed correct information to the software, thereby it will give idiotic results.

    Suny

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    Re: how can we calculation industrial refrigeration

    “The computer is the most efficient idiot”......

    This I like....&;-)

    Ken

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    Re: how can we calculation industrial refrigeration

    calulations are helpful to determine a result, but are only as good as the info inputted by the engineer on the keyboard. the big picture is a result of the engineer's interpritation of the clients requirements and budget.
    magoo

  22. #22
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    Re: how can we calculation industrial refrigeration

    PL. give the specific requirement for calculation or it is simply to calculate heat generated to conclude for Refrigeration/cooling load.

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    Re: how can we calculation industrial refrigeration

    Cvsaraf, the original poster left long time ago - he even made only 1 post - because he realised he asked a stupid question.
    It's better to keep your mouth shut and give the impression that you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.

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    Smile Re: how can we calculation industrial refrigeration

    Quote Originally Posted by abdulazman View Post
    Hi Iam Sanh,

    There are many type of Software, I have Sabroe Techmaster Software. Email me your address, software content 190 MB. Dunno how to pass it on to you?
    Hallo Abdulazman,


    You talk about an refrigeration software. I'm interested if this software can help to calculate the liquid separator capacity for NH3 plants.

    Best regards,

    Mihai

  25. #25
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    Re: how can we calculation industrial refrigeration

    I also 'd like to have your suggestion (Ice Man)where can we start from.Heat load and details to keep that's the things I have.But into the next step I can not select some of machine(Comp in 2 stage system,Vessel,NH3 pump).For Piping and valve sizing I can find myself but the rest one I really cann't cause of I'm not sure what's the idea and limittion of the system.
    Let's start to 1 pratise for cold store,if I have Tuna 150Tons/Day cooled down within 20 Hr.Temp.inlet -12'C Core temp. -18'C Room Temp. -25'C.I just know how much capacity the system want and know that's have to design to be 2 stage system.But I don't know how can select lowstage compressor ,high stage compressor Low pessure reciever liquid pump intercooler and receiever,but for Evaporative condenser I can find if I have model of each compressor. Please help me fof this.Thank you in advance

  26. #26
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    Re: how can we calculation industrial refrigeration

    Quote Originally Posted by abdulazman View Post
    Hi Iam Sanh,

    There are many type of Software, I have Sabroe Techmaster Software. Email me your address, software content 190 MB. Dunno how to pass it on to you?
    As your massage above.I really want to have your program,please kindly sent me to this e-mail, xxxx Thanks so much in advance.
    Last edited by US Iceman; 11-04-2008 at 02:56 PM. Reason: removed email to prevent spam

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    Re: how can we calculation industrial refrigeration

    Quote Originally Posted by abdulazman View Post
    Hi Iam Sanh,

    There are many type of Software, I have Sabroe Techmaster Software. Email me your address, software content 190 MB. Dunno how to pass it on to you?
    I don't recommend to send such huge file as e-mail. It will probably not be accepted at mail server.
    Upload file to some file host as rapid share or better http://www.mediafire.com
    and then send link to whom you wont by e-mail or publish here on forum if you want more people to have it.
    Now, when I am officialy citizen off EU, I am looking for decent job! For any job offer please check my profile!

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    Re: how can we calculation industrial refrigeration

    Will you please send me the link to Sabroe Techmaster at asheesh.aggarwal@yahoo.co.in. I will be grateful to you. I am looking for it since long time.


    Thanx.

  29. #29
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    Re: how can we calculation industrial refrigeration

    Will you please send me the link to Sabroe Techmaster at ahmed_gaad@menara.ma. I will be grateful to you. I am looking for it since long time.

    Thanks

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    Re: how can we calculation industrial refrigeration

    Hi Abdulazman,

    Could you help me by sending the software at gaurav_s55@yahoo.co.in if you are confirtable with it?

    regards

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    Re: how can we calculation industrial refrigeration

    Industrial refrigeration means so many things to so many people. To me it is any centralized system with an engine room. 98% of these systems are ammonia. They are almost always custom due to the varying ambient conditions, product differences, production vs. cold storage, etc. We have programs for relief calculations, MEB, and more, but nothing that will do all the work for us. I would not think that type of program would be possible. The sheer amount of variables that are needed would make the program almost unusable. There is a reason professional engineers must stamp the drawings before they are submitted for building. There is no easy way. Hire an engineer specializing in industrial refrigeration to do the calculations.

  32. #32
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    Re: how can we calculation industrial refrigeration

    Could send me the software at darren_roberts@hotmail.co.uk if you are confirtable with it also?

    Thanks

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    Re: how can we calculation industrial refrigeration

    You have to be very careful using softwear to get your capacity results if you do not know how to do the calculation by hand. In calculating loads and balancing equipment, there are so many variables that can not be programmed into a computer without the proper human interface.

    So be very careful using a piece of softwear without knowing someting about the whole design process.

    ken

  34. #34
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    Re: how can we calculation industrial refrigeration

    can you send me soft on rgvoicu@yahoo.com? Thanks

  35. #35
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    Re: how can we calculation industrial refrigeration

    i need help in my cooling tunnel project plz ?
    just all i need is a data sheet for some of food propereties like but for alot of types like meat,fruits,chocolate cuz i need 2 begin my cooling load capacity calculations

    1- thermal conductivity
    2-specific heat after and before freezing
    3-density
    4-freezing temperature of object etc,

    thnx alot

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