Carbon Based Refrigerants

[subzero*psia]

Okay, I think I am asking the right group of people this question.

I have read and heard about liquid propane, and other carbon based gases etc. being used. I have been itching to try it but I wanted to get some input from servicers that have some expertise with it. (so if I stop posting suddenly you can guess what happened! ) Flowers won't be necessary...

Anybody got any information to share? Similarities with other refrigerants, oil issues, pressure issues, leaks... whatever? How safe are they? Do you like them better or not as much as HFC's?

[WebRam]

Hey Dean,
The company over here in the UK that is pushing it did and full course training some years ago.

I was in the first batch in Scotland.

After I did all the training and taking the time to get registered, none of the major companies used it

The last couple of years have seen interest from some of the main players and I can dig this up for you.

[subzero*psia]

Thanks! I appreciate that! Anything would be great, I am going to try it on a couple small units here at home. I think most manufacturers are leary that end-users will be afraid of leaks, fires etc. with these gases.

[Dan]

We have played with propane in our vehicles back when R12 was the standard. It works fine. I understand that Coca Cola has mandated hydrocarbons in their self-contained equipment for the near future. I guess global warming is the issue pushing this. I am at once afraid of it, and then, not so afraid. Training will become important for those who work on these systems, methinks. Safety training.

When all is said and done, I look forward to the opportunity to work on hydrocarbon equipment.

Dan

[subzero*psia]

Can't say I've had any oil return problems, not with mineral oil or alkyb or poe. But I have heard that same thing about using hydrocarbons. God I hated saying hydro.... it makes me think of water vapor in my oil and gas!!

[Sexton]

There has been a recent massive and unfortunately fatal explosion of a plant with "Hydrocarbon " refrigerant in Hamilton, New Zealand.

This was a fairly large commercial cold store complex with a significant charge of hydrocarbon refrigerant. The refrigeration industry worldwide is again taking stock of the practice of using this refrigerant on a large scale.

There are intensive investigations underway here and the real possibility of contraventions of established safety regulations might have exacerbated this tragedy.

The cold store burned for three days because, once ignited, the structure and product within (dairy products) effectively became a classic oil fire.

One signifiant factor is that the refrigerant is quite difficult to "scent".

In this case, if the gas had had an odour, the fireman's life would probably have been saved. I understand that the "scenting" process is difficult because the ingredients that can be deliberately included for this are trapped and filtered-out during the vapour compression cycle.

This is a major "advantage" of ammonia refrigerant - in that it is "self alarming". and not nearly as inflamable.

Of course, there are many small self-contained and automobile type applications using hydrocarbon refrigerant - each with a minimal charge of refrigerant.

Regardless of this, consideration must be given to isolating sources of ignition (Sparking electric contacts and external heat sources) and to ensuring adequate ventilation and the elimination of "wells" where any gas collections can concentrate.

Obey the regulations! Dont be tempted to cut corners because of price advantages!!

This class of refrigerant, although efficient and "friendly" to oil management, is probably the most HIGHLY FLAMABLE of all refrigerants - regardless of application.

Service work and any pipe repairs needing gas-torch work must be thoroughly planned and preped to prevent damage to plant, injury or loss of life.

Sounds logical hey? - but there are some firemen still recovering in New Zealand who's lives and families will never be the same!

[750 Valve]

damn, sorry to hear of this situation, hope all concerned are okay