refrigeration v's A/C Engineers

[Latte]

Hi All,

Had a conversation with someone earlier today with regards to who were better.
Refrigeration backround engineers or A/C backround engineers. I had never thought too much about it before then and i dont think there is a difference, you do the job you are trained for

Who is better, is probably not the best way to explain but who has the more rounded knowledge might be a better way, or perhaps who makes the transition to the other the easiest.

Still cant word it right so passing it over for discussion

Regards

Fatboy

[Brian_UK]

I think it is kind of difficult to be specific without offending perhaps, so here goes...

Talking of the average Joe, how many are "engineers"? Air conditioning to some is merely working on DX splits or perhaps a water chiller attached to an AHU somewhere.

Whilst some may be excellent at sorting out the electronic faults that develop and can degas and/or recharge to superheat or sub-cooling can they interpret a physcometric chart if it bit them in the arse?

We have been sold the plastic covered 'Air Conditioner' that hangs on the wall or sits in a ceiling grid but lets be honest it's not air conditioning is it? It's air cooling.

Air conditioning requires, filtration, heat, cool, humidity control and air flow control.

As for Refrigeration well I've worked on some refrigeration plant and been quite succesful but there's a heck of lot of knowledge on the subject that I haven't got and probably never will have.

As to who is better, well, ......... I would suggest that the Fridge guy needs a good working knowledge of many things - what is the plant doing, why is the plant doing it, what does the end product need, how can I acheive what is needed and so on.

The AirCon guy nowadays says, how big is the room, that should do it, gas it up and turn it on. Oh, it's broke, change that part, gas it up and turn it on.

An Air Conditioning man will need to know what the plant is supposed to do, how it does it and what needs to be done to acheive it. He doesn't necessarily need to know how the DX plant works too much because he can get the AirCon man to check it runs.

There, I'll sit back and await the flames now

[Latte]

Brian,
Thats why i had problems with the original post, i didnt want to offend anyone, just open it up for discussion.
Perhaps the answer is there will always be top of the tree a/c engineers and top of the tree fridgies but never both.
Look at fridge, go to some of these new pack sites with sensors everywhere, data logging systems and enough valves on the pack to clear out NRS's stock.
Now look at A/C, Take a brand new Daikin VRV3 (no Im not advertising for Frank), various sensors, relays switching inverters, heating and cooling in one go.

Its a question i cant answer, but if it opens a debate then o well i will step back and take cover

Regards

fatboy

[Brian_UK]

That's the thing now isn't it? are we 'refrigerant handling' techies or are we 'electronic whizzkids' who carry safe handling tickets?

(OH well, let's wait until they all wake up tomorrow morning )

[Latte]

Brian,

I like the way that some supermarkets allow engineering staff to dial in, into the central controller to diagnose or check performance from home.

I Wonder how long until Daikin or the other big a/c boys start doing that on large VRV systems

Frank will probably post its already available now

Who needs gauges anymore, just a laptop with internet connection, sit in a layby with a latte and diagnose a gas leak without moving, although in fairness you may actually have to go to site to fix. technology not that good yet to have a remote engineer


Regards

fatboy

[winfred.dela]

Who is better, is probably not the best way to explain but who has the more rounded knowledge might be a better way, or perhaps who makes the transition to the other the easiest.

The question assumes that one technician/engineer only knows Aircon & the other only Refrigeration.
In practice, the AC & R practitioners' path always crisscross in this field and various customer's office.

Am an Aircon guy for the first 10 years and had been enjoying Refrigeration (commercial & industrial) since 1993.
This field (AC & R) is so huge that it would be to the practitioner's advantage that we (at RE Forum) can discuss problems and solutions from both the Aircon & Refrigeration's point of view.

In this very exciting time, collaboration will always be better than competition. There are a lot of examples around.

. . .

[LRAC]

Hi Guys

Now my view will most probably offend someone but you did ask.

refrigeration engineers everytime you can't beat understanding how a system works and what happens in what phase. We always recruit refrigeration people as the switch to a/c is easy just give them a fault code book.

Lrac

[winfred.dela]

refrigeration engineers everytime you can't beat understanding how a system works and what happens in what phase. We always recruit refrigeration people as the switch to a/c is easy just give them a fault code book.

You are assuming that the problem is in the Refrigeration Side and not in the Air side or the Water Side (for the Chilled Water System).

You will need to know how to measure water flow, air flow, static pressure, etc.
Also, you may need to know a lot about psychrometry which is not easy.
You may also need to study the Clean Room system if you're an Air Conditioning practitioner.

. . .

[LRAC]

You are assuming that the problem is in the Refrigeration Side and not in the Air side or the Water Side (for the Chilled Water System).

You will need to know how to measure water flow, air flow, static pressure, etc.
Also, you may need to know a lot about psychrometry which is not easy.
You may also need to study the Clean Room system if you're an Air Conditioning practitioner.

. . .

On this side of the pond the above is classed as refrigeration, air conditioning over here is more pipe bashers and split systems, all of which can be learnt a lot quicker by fridge guys.

Split a/c guys haven't got a clue, bash in the pipework and switch on. If it fails phone the technical help lines.

Lrac

[US Iceman]

You will need to know how to measure water flow, air flow, static pressure, etc.
Also, you may need to know a lot about psychrometry which is not easy.
You may also need to study the Clean Room system if you're an Air Conditioning practitioner.

These are also subjects a refrigeration person should understand. At the least, they should have a good knowledge of the basics.

These are getting to be more involved with the use of brine systems and HVAC systems for food processing rooms.

[US Iceman]

Boy do I feel smart!

[TSK]

Fridge or A/C, the point is both sides have fitters and both side have specialists who never cross over, with my background I would tend to lean towards a Fridge service engineer who has made the transition to A/C service & commissioning across the range.
However most of these guys like myself are now off the tools and in the office. Personally I feel the A/C only types lack the respect they should give to moisture and the problems it causes, keeping the tubes capped, nitro purge & a proper vack out.
To be honest the pack equipment would have me scratching my head for a while as I have never had to work with it, so the fridge guy sorting out the new pack type units who has never worked on A/C kit has my respect. I have worked with plenty who thought they were good until they were asked about a Cascade unit, or a compound compressor, our game is very diverse and there is room for many different specialists.

[NH3LVR]

My two cents.
We are different. We do different things in many cases.
Hopefully we all know the basics. Certainly the refrigeration cycle at the very least.
I have worked on a 500+ Ton Hvac system quite a bit. But the motorized valves and such are new to me. The Chiller itself is not an issue, although it is not of the quality of the Industrial equipment.
But with my industrial background the Pumps Etc. we not particular challenging.
Of course I think that I had it a bit easy. The criteria for a Clean Room is keeping the Temps and Humidity in line. The comfort factor is is measured by the people, not the numbers. On the rare occasions I did anything with the office zones I could not figure out how to satisfy two people siting six feet (apx two meters) apart.
On the other hand I went out last week to a warehouse one of our customers just bought. Mixed plant using Nh3 and HP-80 in different areas. The commercial guy was out that day.
The complaint was that between the hours of 9Am and 12PM the temperature would rise several degrees.
I went up to the roof and found some old rack systems that had been installed used, and had undergone a great deal of "Customization". (Also known as Butchery)
After following a few pipes and finding some very strange (to me at least) things I settled on the controller. I had never seen such a thing before.
Fortunately I turned an unlabeled switch off inside. This powered down the Controller and the machines reverted to pressure controls. I turned it back on and every thing is fine. Blind Luck.
The moral is that we could all do either with a little training.
Leaving me to quote Iceman;

Boy do I feel smart!

[Obi Wan]

You have hit the nail on the head. You are only as good as your training, however common sense has a big part to play. In my view you can't say if the Refrigeration engineer is better then the A/C engineer, the better engineer is the one who will have a go to try to understand the problem and then fix it.

[winfred.dela]

Split a/c guys haven't got a clue, bash in the pipework and switch on. If it fails phone the technical help lines.
Lrac

How about a processing plant at +10C to +15C room temp with ventilation, air ductworks and clean room set-up. They also have chillers and freezers.

Who do we call aircon guy or refrigeration guy?

Also, there are not much help lines in this part of the world. You've got to do all things by your self.

. . .

[Josip]

Hi, Winfred.dela

How about a processing plant at +10C to +15C room temp with ventilation, air ductworks and clean room set-up. They also have chillers and freezers.

Who do we call aircon guy or refrigeration guy?

Also, there are not much help lines in this part of the world. You've got to do all things by your self.

. . .

Maybe both together with software engineer, because your scenario is not that simple.

But, coming back to: refrigeration v's A/C Engineers

there is a big difference in basic requests between installed plants where we have to give a good response in case of failure.

We are mixing pears and apples but at the bottom line if they are good......

Best regards, Josip

[adams?]

hi all, being an a/c man you might guess my view. back when i was an apprentice i was told "an a/c engineer is a refrigeration engineer, electrician and plumber all rolled into one". increasingly now you could also add controls engineer to that list. not sure if that makes a/c guys better or simply a different trade all together. you could also say ofcourse jack of all, master of none.
not sur about this one, i have met good and bad in both feilds and like obi wan says its all down to training.
just to spice things up a little i would like to add a third dimention to this, chiller man. in my experience chiller man often looks down his nose at us split bashers so maybe the question should be - whos better, a/c, refrige or chiller?
i like to keep people happy however so i think we are all great xxx

[taz24]

A fridge is a fridge is a fridge.
Some cool frozen food
some cool fresh food
some cool people.
Whats the differance.
A fridge is a fridge is a fridge.

taz.

[chillin out]

In my past I have repaired domestics, A/C, commercial and supermarket, and I must say the most challenging is the supermarkets.

Think of a tricky A/C fault, then multiply it by a hundred and then you will see how hard supermarket stuff is.

We do all what an A/C engineer does exept when the $h1t hits the fan it does it BIG style, usually at 3am in the morning.

After saying all that, I wouldn't say that a fridgy is better than a split fitter.(or am I ...lol)
It's just a differant job, I would however say that there is less pressure on an A/C enginner to get the job working. You guys can always say that you need to order a new pcb or something, we have to get the new part there and then.

Now, OK, I know you are going to say that sometimes you are doing a server room and it needs fixing asap, but EVERY job we go to MUST be fixed straight away.

Take me back to doing domestics anyday.....lol

Chillin

[monkey spanners]

I think its not so much what you do as its how you do it that makes you a good engineer

Cheers Jon

[chillin out]

I think its not so much what you do as its how you do it that makes you a good engineer

Cheers Jon

I think this says it all.

Chillin