freezer insulation

[jayjay]

i posted this question before and never really came to a conclusion. I would like to spray the outside of my freezer (3300 sf) with icyene foam. To seal any leaks and add insulation. I tried to attach a section of what it will look like. What do you guys think?

[Andy]

i posted this question before and never really came to a conclusion. I would like to spray the outside of my freezer (3300 sf) with icyene foam. To seal any leaks and add insulation. I tried to attach a section of what it will look like. What do you guys think?

Hi Jayjay

in short it won't work

moisture moves from warm air to cold air, if you have no vapour seal on the outside this moisture will move into your panel and freeze, bursting your panel open

Kind Regards Andy

[jayjay]

I thought the moisture might go through the foam and get stopped at the aluminum panel. I think the outside of the panel would still be above freezing so the new foam and the onside of the panel should stay the same.
Icynene website says "Traditional building envelope moisture concerns are addressed with Icynene because it reduces air transfer, which accounts for 99% of moisture migration and subsequent problems like mold growth. Facility managers, particularly those of metal structures, no longer need to be concerned with sweating ceilings, corrosion or moisture caused by air leakage. Icynene's hydrophobic properties also means that the material is unaffected by wetting and drying. Its open-celled structure allows water to drain right through the material. “After all, the problem isn't that water gets in – it's that it can't get OUT” (Pushing the Envelope by Lawrence Herzog). And, since roof leaks do not impede Icynene's performance, your clients will pay much less in maintenance and operating costs."

I'm guessing due to the age of my panels they are all fozen solid can I warm a couple of panels at a time to defrost them?

[Andy]

I thought the moisture might go through the foam and get stopped at the aluminum panel. I think the outside of the panel would still be above freezing so the new foam and the onside of the panel should stay the same.
Icynene website says "Traditional building envelope moisture concerns are addressed with Icynene because it reduces air transfer, which accounts for 99% of moisture migration and subsequent problems like mold growth. Facility managers, particularly those of metal structures, no longer need to be concerned with sweating ceilings, corrosion or moisture caused by air leakage. Icynene's hydrophobic properties also means that the material is unaffected by wetting and drying. Its open-celled structure allows water to drain right through the material. “After all, the problem isn't that water gets in – it's that it can't get OUT” (Pushing the Envelope by Lawrence Herzog). And, since roof leaks do not impede Icynene's performance, your clients will pay much less in maintenance and operating costs."

I'm guessing due to the age of my panels they are all fozen solid can I warm a couple of panels at a time to defrost them?

Jayjay
the above sounds like sales patter
if the moisture is free to travel into the panel, it will just pass into the frozen panel and freeze

It's your money, but my advise would be to replace the panels that are ice bound and to repair the vapour barrier on the outside.

Kind Regards Andy

[winfred.dela]

I thought the moisture might go through the foam and get stopped at the aluminum panel. I think the outside of the panel would still be above freezing so the new foam and the onside of the panel should stay the same.

since you already thought: "MOISTURE" to go through foam. . .

- you should also accept (& think?) that it might be useless piece of insulation after sometime. . .

Hope this will also, at least give you some THOUGHT.

.

[jayjay]

We thanks for the input so much for the easy way out. Be patient with me fella's I am far from a refrigeration specialist. As I said in the past I'm learning.
Replaceing the panels is far to expensive. Is it possible ( and worth it) to heat each panel to defrost it? will this increase the insulating value? I could build a simple highly insulated box that I seal around a panel, heat it up and let the water drain out of it. And in the process try and look around the outside to seal any holes.

[US Iceman]

Before you get too carried away,,,

Can you measure the temperature inside of the freezer and also measure the temperature of the freezer wall (on the outside)?

There should be a substantial temperature difference.

[LRAC]

Is it possible ( and worth it) to heat each panel to defrost it?

Hi Jayjay

If you decide to defrost the panels that are full of ice, you could end up with a pile of collapsed panels.
The insulation has already gone too far for saving and it might be the ice that is supporting the structure?

forget it or just carry on as you are and leave well alone.

Lrac

[old gas bottle]

this is the one with sweating bulding walls is it not !! if there is sweating and there is a gap between the walls and the freezer room walls then the problem will lie ellswhere and spraying the room will be futile,i have seen this method in uninsulated builings to keep them cool in summer and it works but its messy and unsightly,only suitable for agriculturale use not food industry,what is the thickness of your panels and are they polystreyne or polyurathane??

[jayjay]

The temp difference depends on the outside temp. We always maintain 7 degrees or less. I tried 2" foam on the inside to see what the temp difference would be and the inside of the freezer was 7 degrees F, between the inside panel and the foam was 17 degrees F ,and the outside was 75 degree F. The problem is the compressors almost never shut off. We are using over 15,000 kw per month on the freezer with temps outside around 75 degrees F. Maybe this is acceptable?
I don't know what the existing material is its about 4 1/2" yellowish looking and kind of crumply when I squeeze it.

[jayjay]

I was thinking. If LARC is correct that the panels are frozen and I insulate the inside like I wanted to with at least 2" of foam or more, lets say if I do a great job and the old panel is no longer below freezing. I could have the unit colaspe?

[Peter_1]

What are the dimension of your freezer?
If the panels are already that bad, what about the floor panels and eventually frost-up of the ground under the freezer?
I've pictures of a freezer where the concrete floor rose +/- 60 cm (2 feet) due to frost build-up. We installed the freezer 5 years ago - not the frost prevention system - and I warned them then that they could exact troubles.

You're complaining about the high electricity cost, what will it be if you will heat the panels? Additional power for heating and additionally power to remove this heat again.
Waste of your money.

As another member said already, if your panels have frost inside the panels, then they're completely lost. The trapped molecular air spaces in the foam (the air bubbles inside the foam gives panel its insulation characteristics because trapped air insulate the best) are all crushed and have become soaking wet. Your panels have becomes conductors instead of isolation. (Is it isolation or insulation? )

You must solve the cause of your problem, not the results of your problem. If you're panels are frosted, then you not longer can use them. Install another wall inside the excising freezer.
If you have to run this freezer for more then 10 years, rent some freezer containers and remove the panels and start all over again. Perhaps a high initial cost but you have to calculate everything over the years, especially your electricity bill.
If you will stop your business within some years, well then the calculation is fast made.

Don't have a too narrow view on this, you must see it in a bigger perspective.

You asks for advice and if this advice isn't what you've expected, then it's up to you to follow your own vision on this adn keeep working teh way you're working now, or being ailing (is that the correct expression, I doubt?)

Give us once the dimensions, what's stored inside the freezer, what's the load (fresh goods brought into it?),what machines are installed and what you pay per kWh in your country and the night rate.
We can calculate if it's worth the money.

[jayjay]

60' x 60' x 11' high. I bought the building last year and had to take over the existing leases. The tenent has 10 years left on his lease. He stores frozen food that he sells to schools etc. Everything brought in is already frozen. They are in and out about 2 hours per day. cost about .17 cents per kw. No off peak rate. I have 3 - 7 1/2 HP copleland compressors about 5 tons each using HP-80 gas. We are on a slab that still looks in good shape.
You guys really seem to know what your talking about so I will take your advise. I'm exploring ideas here to find a solution to my problem. No one around here has any idea. I've had "engineers" tell me just wrap it all up with fiberglass insulation. Can't imagine the mess that would have been. I'm in the process of having the Dixcell xweb500 installed per your recomendations. It seems like it will work well for me. It seems like new panels is the only way.

[old gas bottle]

it sounds like polyurathane insulation with is what you want for a freezer if its 100mm or more, is there a heater mat fitted, there should be a big transformer and wires going down into the floor,this is to prevent frost heave as peter stated and to stop moisture ingress into the panels,have your engineer check this out,is there any heating in the building to combat the condensation, theres obviously somthing ammiss but its hard without looking,have you thought of hiring a industrial dehumidifier to see if it helps, the test will be if it still sweats in the warmer wheather.

[jayjay]

We have no heat in the building. no wires under the unit. It looks like there are air channels running about 4 feet apart the length of the unit. I assume this is to aloow air to flow around unit.

[winfred.dela]

It looks like there are air channels running about 4 feet apart the length of the unit. I assume this is to aloow air to flow around unit.

If these are below the existing ground, these are air vents to make sure your ground won't freeze due to box temperature. We use these vents in the tropics in lieu of the floor heaters.
But if the temperature of the ground also freezes due to environment, a floor heater is recommended.

Does your floor not freezing?
What's the floor slab (concrete) condition?
Can you seal from outside the panel joints (using silicon sealants, mastic sealants, metal sheets, etc.) to at least minimize the vapor entering your box?

Hope to have shared something.

. . .

[jayjay]

Floor seems to be in good condition. I guess other then replace all the panels I'm out of luck. Will adding insulation to the inside help? Or is that open a whole new set of problems.

[winfred.dela]

Sealing the new insulation inside a PE sheet and making it moisture free will help. But how to do it requires some thinking.

I hope you can isolate a wall by putting a temporary partition (maybe a 1M PVC curtain strips) and then repairing a portion (with the most ice build up) by having a double wall with insulation & vapor barrier.

I hope above helps.

[jayjay]

Had another idea can I insulate the building instead of the freezer? the building is about 8"-12" away from the freezer panels if I sprayed insulation on the concrete wall and roof left at least 1" space between the panel and the concrete. Shouldn't that help keep the building temp. from reaching higher temps? thus keeping everything cooler.

[Peter_1]

This isn't teh proper method. You're trying to find cheap solutions which will give you poor results.

You spoke about a 7.5Hp which gave +/- 5 tons. Or I'm missing with my conversion or you've made an error but a 7.5 HP doesn't give 5 TR, something more in the range of 2 tons (freezing application)

Normally, +/- 11 kW (=?TR) can do the job, or 1 compressor can be used as a standby compressor.

[old gas bottle]

for starters,i assume ny is new york yes ? with proper seasons and bloody cold winters yes, unless you tell me my geography stinks it should be a similar spec to us, heater matt on anything [freezer ]above 3mtr square, min of 100mm insulation in floor,either below floor level or sat ontop of existing floor,concrete or plywood and metal sheet on top ,it will be too cold i would have thought for ambient air ducts to be succesfull,[are they full of ice or moisture]end of the day,if its a poorly constructed box or just knackered insulation you gain nothing by trying to fix it,pull it down and start again will be the only way,painfull but true.cheers.

[Andy]

jayjay

what about getting someone with a thermal imaging camera to check over the insulation, might tell you if and where the insulation needs to replace

Kind Regards Andy

[taz24]

jayjay

what about getting someone with a thermal imaging camera to check over the insulation, might tell you if and where the insulation needs to replace

Kind Regards Andy

Just get a local huddy to rob a car, drive it around for an hour and then when the police catch up to him get him to bailout and lay on the cold room roof. The thermal image of huddy on coldroom will be on the next episode of, Best police videos ever

Thermal imageing on the cheap

taz.

[winfred.dela]

if I sprayed insulation on the concrete wall and roof left at least 1" space between the panel and the concrete. Shouldn't that help keep the building temp. from reaching higher temps? thus keeping everything cooler.

It will help but maybe only for short period of time. Have you really isolated all the problems involved, e.g. Floor slab heater/vents, Wall & Ceiling insufficient/failure in the insulation, Moisture infiltration etc.

. . .

[jayjay]

I have tried to find someone to come and look the entire unit over and find solutions. They all pretty much know less then me. Which is scary. Things they have told me to do. You guys say don't do it. I have more faith in the info from this forum then the engineers I have met. Like I said I had one guy out and he told me to lay fiberglass insulation all around the outside of the box. What kind of mess that would have been. Let me continue the search for someone to come out and make sence of it all. Yes it is New York.

[Electrocoolman]

Hi Jayjay, would tend to go along with suggestions of rip it down and start again....especially if you have a further 10 years.
Also consider going for a thicker walled panel....would cut down on running costs, so extra cost would be offset against running costs.
Possible to use same equipment (plant and evaporators etc)

[US Iceman]

For the record... Anyone who tells you to use fiberglass for wall insulation in a cold storage building is nuts, and should be run off. That's only my opinion.

The reason I asked about the surface temperatures of the walls is similar to what Andy mentioned about using a thermal scan. We are looking for cold spots.

If the walls are frozen, you should be seeing areas or entire sections of wall panels sweating like crazy.

If the wall panels are somewhat uniformly at 75F you could still have some condensation. That doesn't mean the walls are frozen, it just means the wall surface temperatures are below the dew point of the surrounding air.

Check your local weather for the dew point temperature. If the dew point temperature is lower than the wall temperature, you will not have condensation.

If the dew point temperature is higher than the wall temperature, you will have condensation all over the wall.

This only shows that the wall insulation is not sufficient for what you are trying to do.

Another possibility is that there may be a source of water in the building that contributes to a high indoor dew point temperature. Perhaps some type of washing or spraying.

The reason for the compressors running all of the time falls into several areas;

low on refrigerant charge
dirty condensers
freezer door is open too much
warm product is being loaded
or, the usage is much higher than the design premise on which the equipment was selected.

I think you mentioned you have (3) 7.5 horsepower Copeland compressors. Using some guess work, these should have +/- 2 to 3 Tons of capacity as Peter mentioned.

For three units that is a total of about 6 to 9 Tons of capacity for the freezer. If the freezer is 3600 square feet that translates into +/-400 to 600 square feet per Ton of cooling.

400 square feet per Ton is probably closer to the requirements and that may be short.

As a guesstimate, I normally use 250-350 square feet per Ton for ball parking capacity requirements.

I'm afraid we cannot get too specific based on the available information.

[jayjay]

Thats why I posted the question. My way of thinking is when in doubt add insulation. I will try and do all your suggestions (other then replaceing panels) and see how it goes. Be sure everything is clean, carefully go around the box and seal any holes and seams, I will continue to search for someone local guy that has some experiance with freezers, I found the dixcell Xweb500 that you'all recomended my service guy is very reluctant to install he thinks it may cause more problems then its worth. He really doesn't want to mess with the timers that are controling the defrost. Seems like a sensor telling when to defrost and shut off would be worth it. It looks like each unit does 3 defrost cycles per day for 30 minutes each. And I have no local rep to help with the controllers. What do you guys think still worth getting it the xweb500? going to cost about $10,000 to install rep said it should save about $500 per month pays for itself pretty quick

[US Iceman]

What do you guys think still worth getting it the xweb500? going to cost about $10,000 to install rep said it should save about $500 per month pays for itself pretty quick

I would ask for proof that it saved $500 per month before I spent $10K. I would ask for some calculations for your site, not some generic marketing stuff.

Also ask for a quarantee of savings. If it doesn't save the amount on average over 24 months, do you get your money back?

[Peter_1]

That's far much to expensive for the Xweb 500.

For that price, I will even come to the US and install it for you and you will get also a large LCD screen from me and then I will take some weeks holiday in your country. .

[jayjay]

That's about $10,000 to install everything, all wiring, controllers on the compressors, on the evaporators, I also added units to monitor the power for each tenent. I figured I would try and monitor everything. I have 13 compressors on site. also fan speed controls, thermostats. the xweb500 alone is $1400.00 for me to purchase. All the contols are $6,000.00 altogether. Still seems high?

[US Iceman]

Hi Peter,

For that price, I will even come to the US and install it for you and you will get also a large LCD screen from me and then I will take some weeks holiday in your country. .

It's nice to know that you are competitive in your pricing!

[LRAC]

Hi Jayjay

Not been to this thread for a while so i've missed most of it.

Pay for me to come over for 3 days (time square this christmas should be nice) and i'd still tell you to rip it down, or buy some akro props to support the roof and walls.This could turn nasty and end up a safety issue with a possible law case if something does collapse.

As other members have stated we all think it has reached end of life. if you did replace it you could address all of the refrigeration problems you are having and install a defrost on demand system.

Merry christmas and i hope you take the bull by the horns and make the correct choice. If in the future you need help on equipment selection i'm sure any USA forum member would assist you.

Kind regards
Lrac

[winfred.dela]

Thats why I posted the question. My way of thinking is when in doubt add insulation.
I will try and do all your suggestions (other then replaceing panels) and see how it goes.

Are you open to the idea that you can add panels inside the room?

It maybe possible to put additional panels inside.

. . .

[jayjay]

I open to all ideas. If I add panels to the inside my understanding from the forum is that the old panels will defrost and possible colapse etc.
I

[winfred.dela]

If I add panels to the inside my understanding from the forum is that the old panels will defrost and possible colapse etc.

Insulated panel collapse only happens when during start up the air inside the box is lowered abruptly. It's the reason why the cold room is being cooled very slowly with slightly open doors during the start-up.
If done properly, your panels will not collapse.

You can first survey the panel walls & ceiling to find where there is a huge infiltration (usually where ice build up is largest/biggest) and start from there.
For the walls where you want to have double wall insulation, you can put a temporary plastic curtain partition (1.0M W) like window drapes to isolate the wall that will be repaired. Then, you can install the new insulated panels. When the old panels have been isolated you can try to dehumidify the insulation.

This is not an easy task but the other option is also dificult.

. . .

[jayjay]

Thanks winfred how do I find the bad panels? Just look for ice? Most of the ice seems to be on the ceiling, nothing has bulit up on the walls except around the door. How do I dehumidify the insulation? How and what type of insulation can I double up on the inside?

[winfred.dela]

Thanks winfred how do I find the bad panels?
Just look for ice?
Most of the ice seems to be on the ceiling, nothing has bulit up on the walls except around the door.

You can start around the door.
- Gaskets needs repair?
- door alignment?
- door & threshold heaters?

The ceiling panels with ice build up means there is a thermal bridge or openings that feeds the temperature difference that keeps the frost building inside the box.
- do you have a headroom above ceiling?
- are the ceiling levelness good?
- seals @ the joints?

How do I dehumidify the insulation?

If the room humidity is below the environment, you may just have a good seal outside the box.

How and what type of insulation can I double up on the inside?

The idea to double up a wall needs a temporary partition. You may use a 1M PVC curtain installed like the 200mm door strips. Or, you may use tarpaulin to isolate the wall.

You can make a second wall using PU panels (maybe 2 inch thk) cut to the size which is a little shorter than the existing walls. A space between the existing wall and the new wall is needed so you can seal after the new wall is installed.

Remember to have all the necessary thermal cuts at the ceiling, wall & floor joints of the new wall so that there will be no thermal bridge after your retrofitting.

. . .

[jayjay]

What's a PU panel? Not sure what you mean with the space and thermal cuts? How do I attach the panels to the existing ones so it stays up?

[winfred.dela]

What's a PU panel? Not sure what you mean with the space and thermal cuts? How do I attach the panels to the existing ones so it stays up?

PU Panel - Polyurethane.
Thermal cuts - cutting that will prevent thermal bridging.

I believe you need to find a good panel worker to do this one, the ones who knows PU or PS or thermal cuts.

Please do not do this by your lonesome coz it might do more damage than good.

Idea from forum members will make you some sort of knowledgeable but not expert.

. . .

[US Iceman]

I'm not yet convinced the panels are faulty. This thread has covered just about every possibility for panels collapsing from defrosting iced-up panels to pressure differential from warm air being cooled.

I may have missed something, but I am assuming the panels are constructed of insulation and sheet metal skins. These are very common to find.

Each panel joint is sealed to the next adajcent panel and locked into place to form a free-standing structure.

Earlier in this thread several of us asked about thermal scans or taking temperature readings across the wall.

I understand a thermal scan might be prohibitive if you do not have access to one the "guns". But by measuring the exterior skin temperature you can also develop a reasonable assumption of panel condition from an insulation standpoint.

If the wall panels are frozen, there should be visible ice, or excessive condensation on the exterior of the wall panel. That would indicate where the panel is frozen as the ice will not provide any effective insulation effect and allow the surface temperature in that area to decrease, hence the formation of ice or condensation.

Of course the condensation could be a result of the panel simply not being thick enough to provide a suitably high surface temeprature.

In one of the earlier posts it was stated the exterior wall temperature was 75F. If this is somewhat the average temperature at any measurable location on structure, the panels are probably OK.

Ice in the room forms for different reasons. Finding frost around the door is somewhat normal as the moist entering air will deposit the moisture on any cold surface available. If there is a lot of frost around the door perimeter, it's probably becuase the door seal leaks.

Frost on the ceiling is similar. The moist air entering the freezer can still have some moisture in it and this moisture is deposited on ANY cold surface. Warm air rises, so inside of the freezer the warm air entering the freezer still wants to rise until it cools off.

If this was the case you would see larger amounts of frost on the ceiling by the door. This volume of frost would decrease as you get farther into the depth of the freezer.

If you have localized frost forming at wall or ceiling panel joints, it typically means the seals at the joints are leaking.

Hopefully, someone did not install the evaporator right over the entrance door as this is the worse place to put an evaporator.

Having (3) 7.5 compressors running all of the time to maintain 7F can be attributed to:

• someone installed a 4" panel (which is normally used for a cooler). Freezer panels are normally thicker in my experience. Although, the presence of the PVC tubes under the concrete floor tells me someone intended this to be freezer. If the panels are indeed 4" thick, someone could have also tried to save some money by using the thinner panels. They sved the money, now someone else is paying for it.
• The refrigeration system was not sized correctly
• the refrigeration system needs to be serviced
• higher usage than allowed for in the initial design calculations
• The compressors could be medium temperature compressors which are simply not big enough to provide sufficient capacity
• or something else.

One thing I do not remember reading about the product being placed in the freezer is, the product temperature entering the freezer. If it is not at the the same temperature being maintained by the freezer then product cooling loads are being added. This could be sensible or latent loads, the latter being much larger in required cooling capacity.

Just some thoughts to consider....

[winfred.dela]

One thing I do not remember reading about the product being placed in the freezer is, the product temperature entering the freezer. If it is not at the the same temperature being maintained by the freezer then product cooling loads are being added. This could be sensible or latent loads, the latter being much larger in required cooling capacity.

This thread started as to what to do to solve the existing problem.

We have assumed that the one who started this thread have checked on the background of the project; e.g. cooling load and temperature for which it was built, products to be stored: room could have been a -5C box or at 0C for meat or +C room temp for fruits & vegetables, etc. etc. . . .

We may have been too fast and too keen in giving our views and we could have all been wrong if data are all incorrect or insufficient.

Or just the plain Garbage In Garbage Out . . .

[US Iceman]

We may have been too fast and too keen in giving our views and we could have all been wrong if data are all incorrect or insufficient.

Or just the plain Garbage In Garbage Out . . .

I'm not sure which one it is. And I have been quilty of doing both also.

One thing I have learned is to slow down and ask questions, before giving answers...which was one of the hardest things for me to learn how to do.

It just seems to me that something (information/data/assumptions) is missing, and I would not want the gentleman to go ahead and start spending money without a firm direction to move forward with.

There has been some very good information posted in this thread that deals with a very difficult problem to correct.

I believe one of the original questions was something like, "why do the walls have condensation on them?, or something like this.

Before we start to remove or add wall panels/insulation he should check the indoor dew point temperature. If the dew point temperature is higher than the surface temperature of the wall panels, condensation will form on the panels.

The next issue is; why are the wall panels cold? Insufficient insulation thickness could be one reason as the lower insulation thickness allows the surface temperature to be lower. Thicker insulation will of course increase the surface temperature of the wall panel.

There could be some other issus also with; thermal breaks, leaking penatrations for pipes/conduit, wall seams, or in the worse case scenario, ice in the walls.

I think we can all agree this is a strange problem the owner is discussing, but I would like to be sure we don't send him down the wrong path in trying to fix the problem.

Any of us who have done refrigeration work for many years will realize we have to use a systematic approach to finding the answers. This usually means we have to ask a lot of questions that may appear to have no relevance to the problem (at least to an untrained person, no offense to the owner of course ).

The other side of this argument is, the owner is faced with a problem that sounds like it will not be cheap to correct.

[winfred.dela]

I'm not sure which one it is. And I have been quilty of doing both also.

Am also guilty. . .

The other side of this argument is, the owner is faced with a problem that sounds like it will not be cheap to correct.

Corrections are always expensive.
But, maybe in this particular case, the customer started by wanting to save money using a chiller for a freezer.

Again, am only guessing.

. . .

[jayjay]

I ("the owner" as you'all are calling me) posted the question because I felt like we were using excessive amounts of electricity. I purchased this building with the units in already so I have no idea what it was designed for. I appreciate all your comments and without a doubt I have learned more reading this forum then from anyone I have had out at the site. I tend to want to sovle the problem overnight with everything I do. In this case it seems that the slow and steady pace might be the best in the long run. I am going to try and do the following to the unit. Install the xweb500, carefully go around the unit and seal anything that may be leaking, check and repair door seals as best as possible. Then see how it goes from there. May take some time to see if I did any good. If nothing changes you'll be hearing from me again.
Do I have the same problems with coolers running 38 degrees or can I insulate with a spray foam around it? The unit is homemade refridge 2x4,2" pink board and fiberglass panel. No moisture barrier at all.
Thanks for all the input.

[winfred.dela]

Do I have the same problems with coolers running 38 degrees or can I insulate with a spray foam around it?

38 degrees, F?
- This is above the freezing so no problem with the frosting. No need to insulate if the existing insulation is still fine.

The unit is homemade refridge 2x4,2" pink board and fiberglass panel. No moisture barrier at all.

Insulated panel with Fiberglass insulation?
With wood nailers?

- Its a 70's and below kind of insulated panels. It will work but your energy expense might more than you will need. In the long run, you may save more by replacing the panels.

. . .

[old gas bottle]

glad theese man hours are not chargable,he,he, couple of points,over here post 911 the industry moved onto rockwool panels for a better fire rating, they were a pig to work with and very heavy,loved the moisture asswell,so dont go that way,good point made about it may have been designed for a higher temperature aplication,normaly that would have been meat with that size of equipement,28/32 F,meat rails would normaly have been fitted and the factory geared up for this,but not allways,the insulation in this case would be borderline o/k and still may be the reason for the sweating, i personaly think that any attemp to line it with more insulation,spray it, or anything that detracts from single wall and cieling panel construction is a big mistake, water and ice will find its way between it,build up and expand/collapse or increase the problem,seen it all before,your previous post holds the key,do away with obvious gaps,seals etc, get the plant running propely,and see how it goes.

[jayjay]

Not to confuse anyone I have the freezer running zero degrees F and the coolers running 38 degrees F. Two different units same building. The fiberglass is just a 1/8" board screwed to the wood studs and the foam is just wedge inbetween the wood studs. This is on the 38 Degree unit. The freezer is a manufactured panel.

[US Iceman]

Hi jayjay,

You are showing a tremendous amount of patience with us.

The freezer panels sound like traditional materials and construction.

The cooler construction sounds like a different story. I would expect the lumber is probably normal kiln dried lumber instead of pressure-treated?

The normal lumber will probably experience rotting after some time since I doubt the cooler has any "effective vapor barrier" to keep water out of the wood.

The pressure treated type would presumably last longer. Although any wood product will tend to absorb the moisture.

However, I am not a fan of stick built coolers after the last one I worked on for a customer.

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