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Thread: R600a

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    R600a


    I am getting asked more and more to work on R600a domestic refrigerators but I always avoid them and feel that I should investigate further if it is worth me getting kitted out for them. I have never even purchased a canister of R600a and would like to know do you charge with scales or a charging still as I find electronic scales in small amounts not accurate enough and always seem undercharged, charging cars is fine, is the gas entered in liquid or vapour state and can you still use a normal vac pump or is it a special spark proof item. I sat my C&G gas handling this year and to my surprise there was no mention of using R600a Safely.



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    Re: R600a

    I thought you had to be CORGI registered to handle R600a?

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    Re: R600a

    I think Calor/Care does training for 600a etc. You need to have passed the course to buy the stuff. Although my local trade counter staff didn't know this and would have sold me some if i wanted any!
    I think you need a explosion proof vac pump and reco rig (intrinsicly safe?). A guy i talked to who worked on 600a said he had to carry a large fan to ventilate the area when working. Someone else i know just lets it out and replaces it with a drop in, possibly R413A?
    Have avoided it myself so far.

    Cheers Jon

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    Re: R600a

    Not working with this stuff, I decided to look up the MSDS on it.
    Will stick with something safe, like Ammonia

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    Re: R600a

    Most manufacturers in the UK have suffered massive compressor failures and systems blocking up with R600, my experience comes from light commercial cabinets with this stuff in it, and it isn't good.

    Some are coming away from R600 and i don't blame them.

    We replace gas with R49 drop in, after that all is OK.
    Lrac

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    Re: R600a

    Quote Originally Posted by LRAC View Post
    We replace gas with R49 drop in, after that all is OK.Lrac
    I do exactly the same, only thing is the compressor is then slightly oversizeds, still not sure if to get trained up on R600 or not, personally do not like the gas.

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    Re: R600a

    Quote Originally Posted by LRAC View Post
    Most manufacturers in the UK have suffered massive compressor failures and systems blocking up with R600, my experience comes from light commercial cabinets with this stuff in it, and it isn't good.

    Some are coming away from R600 and i don't blame them.

    We replace gas with R49 drop in, after that all is OK.
    Lrac
    If R49 is the gas developed by Forbes Pearson it has butane in it anyway
    But not in the amounts that cause problems as I have seen people leak testing it with flame type leak detectors

    Kind Regards Andy
    If you can't fix it leave it that no one else will

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    Re: R600a

    Hi everyone

    We work with R600 every day and havn't experienced any of the above issues, we weigh the gas in, although it must be in precise measures in our experience. Also as we understand there are no seperate gas handling courses needed for R600. Of course we don't braze pipe work when using R600, but use lockring joints and have never had any failures but we have had a number of blockages in domestic cabinets and wondered if it were down to the nature of the gas, maybe someone can throw some light on this area ?

    Pete (ARNL)

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    Re: R600a

    R600a is lovely, I learned about refrigeration on R600a systems. I did a days training for hydrocarbons with BOC as they are now the sole suppliers of care refrigerants and insist that you take their course before they sell it to you.

    You will need accurate scales to charge with it though as it is about half the density of other refrigerants at working pressures.

    I have never had any bother with R600a, it only burns if you get it in the right mix with oxygen. You don't need to recover charges of 150g or less so you can let them go outside, then use nitrogen to purge, evacuate, break with nitrogen and the system is safe.

    Since it is a refrigerant you will need to have the refrigerant handling certificate too. Hydrocarbons such as R600a were mentioned in the CITB refrigerant handling course, but only to say it's flammable and if you reclaim it, don't pull down below atmospheric pressure as you risk pulling air into the system and if you pull enough in, an explosive mix inside the circuit could be achieved. (but that's pretty hard to do).

    I have seen Lockring joints, but even on prototyping I braze the systems back together. It's perfectly safe if you evacuate the system and break with Nitrogen before you start.

    I've not heard anything about systems blocking or compressor failures though!! I've found it a reliable and efficient gas. I'll check through some of the literature I have here though, I got a lot of material on it from in my uni days.

    Ed

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    Re: R600a

    Quote Originally Posted by en9ech View Post
    I've not heard anything about systems blocking or compressor failures though!! I've found it a reliable and efficient gas. I'll check through some of the literature I have here though, I got a lot of material on it from in my uni days.

    Ed
    Have a look at most bottle coolers that breakdown, most of them will be blocked and then the comp fails it left running.

    Chillin
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    Re: R600a

    Thanks for the info en9ech, interesting stuff. I still have not had chance to sort a course out yet as I have been extremely busy with my existing work load but I shall look into courses for the winter time, most definately.

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    Re: R600a

    have found that r600 dosent work as well in warm kitchens and sumtimes block up if turned off and left overnight chances are it will run ok again

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    Re: R600a

    I have spoken today with some colleagues about blockages with R600a and the only causes any of us can come up with are poor cleanliness during manufacture.

    If a capillary expansion unit is blocking up but when left off over night works again the next day, I would guess the problem is caused by moisture. Moisture in the refrigerant would freeze at the first point it comes to that's cold enough....the evaporator end of the capillary tube. A good evacuation and re-charge should cure that. But unless the unit was badly made, the question remains as to how the moisture got there in the first place.

    Ed

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    Re: R600a

    usaly blow off and charge with 134a works fine done it 3 times now

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    Re: R600a

    Quote Originally Posted by thebigcheese View Post
    usaly blow off and charge with 134a works fine done it 3 times now
    What about the oil type? I thought R600 used Mineral oil.

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    Re: R600a

    oops! i was told by gasco that u cud use 134a? may need to find that out tomorow? although 2 of the fridges have been runing ok now since last july

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    Re: R600a

    Quote Originally Posted by thebigcheese View Post
    oops! i was told by gasco that u cud use 134a? may need to find that out tomorow? although 2 of the fridges have been runing ok now since last july
    I have done this many times now, and all are still working. Tou should cut off some of the capillary 1st and change the drier.

    I have spoken today with some colleagues about blockages with R600a and the only causes any of us can come up with are poor cleanliness during manufacture.
    I heard when they 1st brought this gas out that it was meant to be super duper about not getting blockages.
    It can also handle a lot more moisture than other gases.

    But sadly this is not the case. When people test systems in a controlled environment then it works OK, but when you jam the fridge in the back of a bar in a busy night club with a blocked condenser then it starts misbehaving.


    Chillin
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    Re: R600a

    Quote Originally Posted by ARNL View Post
    Hi everyone

    We work with R600 every day and havn't experienced any of the above issues, we weigh the gas in, although it must be in precise measures in our experience. Also as we understand there are no seperate gas handling courses needed for R600. Of course we don't braze pipe work when using R600, but use lockring joints and have never had any failures but we have had a number of blockages in domestic cabinets and wondered if it were down to the nature of the gas, maybe someone can throw some light on this area ?

    Pete (ARNL)
    Who manufactures these lockring joints and or where do you buy them

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    Re: R600a

    Who manufactures lockring joints which can be used with R600a and or where can they be bought

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    Re: R600a

    I must say that I haven't been in the refrigeration business a long time, but my experience with R600a has been bad. In fact the first job I done solo was on an r600 Fridge, it was only 6 months old from currys, and only a week out of guarantee. I looked at it and straight away I suspected the compressor had seized. I rang my dad and he couldn’t believe that a compressor so new has seized, and suspected a rookie mistake. He came round to confirm that the compressor had in fact seized. Ok fair enough, maybe not the gas, maybe a faulty compressor.
    The lady decided ring up currys to complain and they agreed to fit a new compressor cheap. 8 months later the same lady called, same fridge playing up. It turns out that the curries engineers fitted it with another a R600 compressor; it was a different type compressor but it still seized!
    It makes you think.


    It’s also interesting to point out that once again the lady called currys and they said they would replace the fridge, she said “well the engineer says your fridges are on r600 which seems to have a problem” they replied “Oh, that’s OK, your new fridge will be on r134”. This was the support line and it seems to be strange that they know about r134, it suggests to me they have be instructed of the problem and to reassure the customer

    I don't do domestics now so I suppose that things maybe better but I sure hope r600 doesn't start to sneak into Commercial refrigeration

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    Re: R600a

    hello everyone...
    am still freshly new to RE..
    such agas r600a..dealing whith its operaitional compressor..works perfect..but the problem:need accurate amount..it might cuz blockage.

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    Re: R600a

    I know this is an old post of mine but as I am coming across it more and more on commercial equipment I have today booked my place on a BOC care course for the 16th January, I will keep you posted on the outcome and my honest opinion if it is worth £155 + VAT.

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    Re: R600a

    I have plenty of question I will ask, after nearly 30 years in this trade they wont palm me off with nonesense.

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    Re: R600a

    Been on the course today and in my opinion it was very worth while, answered all my queries etc and I left feeling satisfied that I was safe and competent to work on Care refrigerants, it would probably be useless to someone who only dabbles in domestics as a good back ground in refrigeration in my opinion is necessary as there was no hands on training.

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    Re: R600a

    my experience with 600a and blocked capillaries has been primarily caused by the desicant in the filters disolving and getting caught up in the cappillary..

    I have only found this on the spun copper type driers with the loose packed desicant and not the solid core type driers that you find on commercial gear.
    I suspect that the driers and their ingredient are not comptible with hydrocarbon base refrigerants and just fall apart!!

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    Re: R600a

    Quote Originally Posted by Igor View Post
    Who manufactures lockring joints which can be used with R600a and or where can they be bought
    Hi the sole company (as I am aware) who makes lokrings is Vulkan, They were first developed for NASA's space shuttle. The system is sound and is simple to work although expensive, the main problem is the space to use the crimping pliers.

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    Re: R600a

    I use R600a, everyday in my line of work. I have heard about these problems , but none never happen to me. In my opinion R600a , is the best refrigerant one can use these days. All you need is the right tools and some common sense. I braze copper piping , and also work normally as I am working with other refrigerants, the difference is that you need to purge the system with nitrogen before.

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    Re: R600a

    Hi All

    I have been working with R600a for over 10 years and have never had a problem with R600a unlike the R134a which always restricts and causes the compressors to fail due to lack of crculation.

    I only fit R600a aspera compressors and have never had a failure,I dont charge by weight either,if you charge to .4 the system will run without any problems.I braze all joints including the final seal.

    Like all refrigerants..treat it with respect and it'll behave.

    Bryan

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    Re: R600a

    i cannot see how all the people that are saying r600 is great, nearly every domestic r6oo i have worked on has blocked up or filled the condenser with oil..............

    rubbish

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    Re: R600a

    I think the problem lies with the fact that domestic refrigeration gets abused from the disposal point of view therefore manufacturers are using more and more isobutane as it is ozone friendly when the fridge / fridge freezer ends up in the tip or gets punctured by someone at home trying to derfrost the frozen ice chamber and puncturing the evap ...The same cannot be said for the usual refrigerants.

    The fact that engineers have to suffer the the problems associated have little consequence, and should have little impact on the enviroment only in frustration from mass production

    Dont you just love white goods lol

    Jeff

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    Re: R600a

    I HAVE A COUPLE OF HUNDRED DOMESTIC FRIDGE FREEZERS NEEDING NEW R600a COMPRESSORS. ANY IDEAS AS TO WHERE THE CHEAPEST PLACE TO SOURCE THEM WOULD BE? ALSO I HAVE A PROBLEM WHERE THEMSTAT DOES NOT CUT OUT SO COMPRESSOR IS CONTINUALLY RUNNING. TRIED NEW STATS BUT PROBLEM IS EXACTLY THE SAME. AM I MISSING SOMETHING DEAD OBVIOUS? ALL ADVICE GREATFULLY RECEIVED

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    Re: R600a

    fit a ranco vxo on them and a r134a comy.and give it a 15 min vac.

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    Re: R600a

    Quote Originally Posted by SEANMAC View Post
    ALSO I HAVE A PROBLEM WHERE THEMSTAT DOES NOT CUT OUT SO COMPRESSOR IS CONTINUALLY RUNNING. TRIED NEW STATS BUT PROBLEM IS EXACTLY THE SAME. AM I MISSING SOMETHING DEAD OBVIOUS? ALL ADVICE GREATFULLY RECEIVED
    Have you taken a pressure reading? Is it a wet wall evaporator type?

    It could be either a system problem (lost charge, slight blockage, inefficient compressor) causing it to run longer to achieve the set temperature or if it is a wet wall evaporator what has been known to happen is the thermostat phial clamp comes away from where it should be located but this usually causes an excessive build up of frost. If the latter is your conclusion then really it is knackered.

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    Re: R600a

    i tried zapp's method , but its not working.

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    Re: R600a

    Quote Originally Posted by anna.savvy View Post
    i tried zapp's method , but its not working.
    What did you try, a recharge with 134a?

    If so did you replace the filter drier before recharging?

    I used to recharge 600a systems with R49, after replacing drier and flushing system with nitrogen, the only thing i then found was the compressors are oversized.

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    Re: R600a

    come on guys check out hychill.com.au get out of the dark ages & get it together

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    Re: R600a

    so like whats the deal with this r600a malarky is it gas or is it like some hydrocarbon? see in a butayn plant they use the butyn as a refigerant to cool the butayn. to -80 to store it as a liquid.is that what r600a is all about or is it like any thing else? how do they make gas any way? it dose not exist in nature thats why it kills the o-zone! i mean how do they make it. you just get it in a bottle and put it in, then it works but where dose it come from? i just dont know whre dose it come from? dose r600a caome from the noth see like butayn?

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    Re: R600a

    Been working with R600a

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    Re: R600a

    Been working with R600a for many years. Worked for a major manufacturer in the UK and Italy and was part of the team that brought the gas into the UK from Bosch via my prev company in Milan in the mid 1990's. I am still in the trade and find Beko give the most problems with R600a due to blown valve's on the cheap pots.You usually find the condenser is full of oil because of this. We normally change the pots and condensers at the same time as we repair in customers houses and don't blow through systems. Never had any problems with capillary blockage. We only ever use lokrings and dont tend to have problems with them. R600a has a really bad scrubbing action and when I was testing systems in the lab in the mid 1990's we found that copper oxide from brazing was rubbing off and entering the capillary. Lokrings are a cleaner system and you don't get the risk of copper oxide contamination. Wouldn't recommend using R134a in a R600a system as the oil will eventually wax and block the system

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    Re: R600a

    I am thinking of doing this also, so will be waiting to here how you find it. Thanks jim

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    Re: R600a

    we have loads of 600 problems mainly with blocked caps and blown comps useually down to blocked condensors we find the biggest fault is a very low back pressure we had to do a specialistcourse due to our insurance every week we do a walls freezer with one of the flammables in fitting comps and caps

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    Re: R600a

    No one has mentioned what to do when you get a blocked cap tube!!!

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    Re: R600a

    Either try to flush it out or replace.

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    Re: R600a

    Hi friends.can somebody help me?
    how much is the capillary tube in refrigerator when you use R600a?
    How you can calculate it?

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    Re: R600a

    and another question.what is dynamic viscosity for R134a and R600a?
    thanks alot

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    Re: R600a

    Hi All

    I have been working on and with R600a for the past 14 years approx. and compared to R134a or any other drop in's its the best refrigerant available.Restriction's probably be able to count them on my fingers if I could remember the last one I had. Scales.. Don't use them and you don't need them if you get to know the working pressures.If you charge to -.450 on your R600a single gauge then you will find its a perfect charge.
    Concerning ventilation.All you need is what you would expect to have doing any refrigeration work.I have brazed from the very first time and will continue to do so. Approx. 5000 compressors so far and no failures due to the refrigerant.If you use a cheap compressor then you get what you pay for.I refuse to fit anything other than aspera/whirlpool compressors for domestic equipment.

    Bryan

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    Re: R600a

    Hi R600a

    Whats an average price to replace a domestice compressor & charge with 600

    r's chillerman
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

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