Whats expected from training?

[taz24]

I have known of this site since it started way back when R12 was a lad.
I have often wondered what peoples opinion was of training so here goes.

What do people think of training?

Do you feel that the training offered is giving you what you require or is it designed to get you a qualification?
If you could design the best sort of training what would it be and how long would it last for?

I'm old enough to have gone through a full 5 year apprenticeship and learned everything at the coal face and feel as though it has made me into the all rounded engineer that I am.
But can one person know everything about refrigeration or do you have to specialise.

Cheers taz.

[Andy]

Hi Taz

nothing beats proper on the job training

Classroom training is only a poor second

We introduce new products by class room training, just the basics. We give the engineers the documentation.
I will always answer the phone to an engineer with problems, we encourage communication between the engineers.

We use the mentoring system, the senior guy gets the new stuff to figure out (helped out by me and the manufacturer), he then passes the knowledge on to others as the product becomes more common.

This is the only real way to train engineers

Kind Regards Andy

[jamcool]

I think the classroom training give u the basics but as andy says nothing beats the hands on,but to stir thought,if on the job you are taught the wrong way,without any classroom background are you now doom to continue in ignorance?I have seen instances where techs for years with no classroom behind their ears,very good in their trade can spot a defective valve with just a listen,showing young guys to charge new blends of refrigerants vapour side,this is what they know and this is what is passed on. I think the balance should be made between classroom and on the job training or incorperate both,each company pulls their techs in and do some type of product and tech.training.we need that in the caribbean Just another thought if the company you work for is product specift say u work for Trane is there not a danger of you only knowing Trane kit which can make you a good Trane tech. but not a alround good Tech see where I am going.

[Pooh]

Taz
As far as your comments being the head of a refrigeration training department in the UK I agree a proper 5 year apprenticeship is essential however I also agree with Jamcool that if as an apprentice you are taught by an engineer with less than basic knowledge and there are plenty of them about will the apprentice end up being a good engineer. 90% of the students we get are all apprentices working in industry but there are very few who get the diversity of equipment to work on these days that I got 30 years ago. I disagree with Andy when he says classroom is a poor second as without the theory being the basic building blocks how can you build your experience and knowledge. As a college we would love to hear from industry what they want us to teach the lads coming through but trying to get them to talk to us is painfully difficult. I beleive a good engineer is a product of both classroom and work based training, but as with everything today even the refrigeration industry now requires that you have qualifications to say you can do your job and you cant get them without the theory.

Ian

[US Iceman]

I beleive a good engineer is a product of both classroom and work based training

Here, Here! I agree with this. You have to have the theory part otherwise you are stuck in a complex web of terminology you ,might not understand. The theory is certainly the basis on which understanding is solidified.

One of the main things I see a lack of understanding on is how refrigerants act in various circumstances. I could see more time being spent on refrigerants, than almost any other single subject.

Once the student gets a solid understanding of the basics, he has a good foundation on which to build his knowledge. If he can get some specialized training or work experience on chillers and supermarket systems he will have a good and varied background on which to draw from.

As a college we would love to hear from industry what they want us to teach the lads...

That's quite refreshing to hear. I've tried talking to some schools about their training subject matter and it has amounted to "go away". I've even been turned down for a free speaking engagement to describe other facets of refrigeration systems.

Some of the colleges are now starting to recognize the value of having industry speakers come in to address the students, which I think is a good idea. It lends a different perspective on the industry and the problems or type of systems encountered.

I believe this can help the students to better understand what they are getting themselves into.

[Pooh]

My department is made up of 8 tutors 6 of which are all time served refrigeration engineers from all areas of the trade I have worked on everything from domestic fridges to multi stage ammonia systems and have been on call outs at 3am when I should have been in bed. The ability to pass on the relevant information to the apprentices in the language they understand is what works. We have guest speakers and just people who wonder in for a coffee talk to our students on a regular basis and if possible do site visits to expand their knowledge. As previously mentioned we need guidance from industry as to what they want us to teach, obviously we need to meet the requirements of the awarding body as far as the qualification goes but there is scope for meeting the requirements of the industry. personally I think more time should be spent on teaching control logic in respect of electronic controls and this is being integrated into the courses for this year. Any input from across the pond as to what is happening over there is welcome.

Ian

[US Iceman]

personally I think more time should be spent on teaching control logic...

That is another very good subject. I learned a great deal from one old timer who used ladder diagrams for everything.

It has been a long while since I've taught at this level, but I hope to find out how several of the schools are doing it here at the present.

[Andy]

My department is made up of 8 tutors 6 of which are all time served refrigeration engineers from all areas of the trade I have worked on everything from domestic fridges to multi stage ammonia systems and have been on call outs at 3am when I should have been in bed. The ability to pass on the relevant information to the apprentices in the language they understand is what works. We have guest speakers and just people who wonder in for a coffee talk to our students on a regular basis and if possible do site visits to expand their knowledge. As previously mentioned we need guidance from industry as to what they want us to teach, obviously we need to meet the requirements of the awarding body as far as the qualification goes but there is scope for meeting the requirements of the industry. personally I think more time should be spent on teaching control logic in respect of electronic controls and this is being integrated into the courses for this year. Any input from across the pond as to what is happening over there is welcome.

Ian

Hi Ian

I'm stepping up onto my soap box Yes it would be nice if the college taught the theory, I was taught by a Dr in Engineering and it has stood me in good stead
I have engineers who have little in the line of theory who learn on the job and perform equally as good a job, if not better than some of the younger staff

The secret is good on the job training, I will put it another way, we are tradesmen, who work with their hands, you can teach a joiner all the theory in the world, but he needs to work with wood to be a joiner

Less theory, more practical experience. More than once I have, in fact everytime a get a new engineer I have to teach them how to strength test properly ,

Fault finding, or systematically aproaching a system problem, often I have to prompt an engineer, did you check this I had one occassion where a good engineer was working on a VRF, he phoned the A/C manufacturer for fault codes, it had multiple faults (the unit had no gas in it, why did he not just fit gauges).

On the job training is the only real training, a proper apprentiship is the only answer to the skills shortage we are all suffering from today.

Kind Regards Andy

[Pooh]

Andy
not wishing to be rude but what qualifications have you got in refrigeration? I agree to a point but as somebody who assesses people for the refrigerant handling qualifications and repeatedly comes across so called engineers who dont even know what superheat is. There has got to be theoryand classroom work as most of the engineers out there dont understand what the requirements industry are putting on us as educators of the new apprentices we are expected to train. As you have not read my previous post my department is made up of 6 engineers who have a minimum of 30 years experiance in the trade and could probably teach you a thing or two, we are trying to do our best to fill the skill gap but the likes of yourself who cry us down is not helping just making yourself supposedly more ireplaceable. Sorry we all need to do our bit.

Ian

[monkey spanners]

Here we go!
If passing tests made people proficient at things there would not be so many accidents on the roads.
Its not so much the way people are tought as it is what sort of person they are. I think its nieve to think as modern society seems to that if someone is doing something wrong its because they don't know any better. Based on the engineers ive worked with over the years its got more to do with their atitude to the job. Any recovery bottles i left down our yard would be empty next time i needed them, i belive my old boss would open the tap as he left for home, despite the fact that he had a handling certificate etc. One of his other engineers would say things like "at that time of night any gas will do..." Had heard that on one job he could'nt be bothered to wait to vac out the new system (pressure test, you are joking) so just purged it All thier qualifications don't improve their attitude to the work and the environment.

What im trying to say is that not every one whos qualified is a credit to the trade, and not every one who isn't is a bodger.
I'm not having a go at anyone. If my veiws offend its unintenional.

Cheers Jon

[Andy]

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[Andy]

Duplicate Post

[Andy]

Andy
not wishing to be rude but what qualifications have you got in refrigeration? I agree to a point but as somebody who assesses people for the refrigerant handling qualifications and repeatedly comes across so called engineers who dont even know what superheat is. There has got to be theoryand classroom work as most of the engineers out there dont understand what the requirements industry are putting on us as educators of the new apprentices we are expected to train. As you have not read my previous post my department is made up of 6 engineers who have a minimum of 30 years experiance in the trade and could probably teach you a thing or two, we are trying to do our best to fill the skill gap but the likes of yourself who cry us down is not helping just making yourself supposedly more ireplaceable. Sorry we all need to do our bit.

Ian

Hi Ian

Not wishing to be rude I have the following

qualifications now lets think

City and Guilds mostly
207 II and 207 III Mechanics and Advanced Mechanics
257 I and II Technicians
23 different parts.

2078 02 Refrigerant Handling ***** and NH3

Grasso Screw Compressor course and a number of different Danfoss courses up to and including the new AK2 stuff.

ETC Craftmans certificate. (including some NVQ's up to NVQ Level III)

HNC Plant Engineering (refrigeration not available in N.Ireland)

And most importantly 16 years on the job experience with all sizes of plant up to including the largest in Ireland

Ian you wanted industry feed back, we are only giving it it's not really my problem if you don't like what you are hearing from the likes of me
I have not made any personal attacks on you Ian and would not expect any in return
On a lighter note there are a number of good courses out there Grimsbys HNC/HNC's being among them.
Your guys could probably teach me something, but I would say we could probably teach them on the implimentation of new technologies.
As a matter of interest have you an teaching plants running with inverter drives and internet based monitoring and control packages

Kind Regards Andy

[Pooh]

Andy
your comments reference your ex bosses enviromental awareness if you had been taught purely by that sort of person what sort of engineer would you have become. My point has always been that you cannot build a house without foundations the same as you cannot create a fridge engineer without the theory but the theory on its own is totally useless. You would not be what you are without the college time you haved put in.

Ian